Do you blame wolves?

[Ben Lamb]

There is always more than one single reason... but c'mon... acting like wolves are a small piece among many is little disingenuous. My family's been in the Gardiner area for 3 decades. We had bad droughts before (remember '88 fires?). We had high tag numbers for decades. We never had <5,000 elk in the Northern Yellowstone Herd until wolf populations went wild for 15 years. Unmanaged wolf populations have had a huge effect on the elk herds in those areas. No denying it.

Not denying wolves have an impact at all, but it's no where near conclusive that wolves were the biggest reason for the crash. They most certainly were additive, but so are grizz, black bears, lions. All of those critters have seen an increase, and so has development of winter range, loss of nutritional content in forage on public lands, too many tags, etc.

You can't look just at wolves. They may have accelerated the decline, but it was going to happen one way or another. There is a growing body of evidence to show that poor forage on some public lands is making a lot of ungulate species a lot more stressed (Absoroka Elk Ecology Project, Grand Teton Moose studies). Add two legged and four legged predators on top of that, and you have a situation ripe for a crash.

Should wolves be managed with a fairly heavy hand? You bet. There's nothing to indicate that we'll wipe them out even with the strategies that ID and MT have adopted. Are they the reason we can't grow elk? I don't buy it.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Ben, Did you not see this? The truth about wolves, from the experts.

 

[rmyoung1]

Hey, Ben, I'd like to apologize for the "disingenuous" comment. That wasn't a good word choice as it suggests that you are hiding some agenda or something, which I don't believe is the case. Plus, these confrontational rants aren't exactly consistent with the Godly character I feel I'm called to exhibit. So... sorry about that.

I was merely just making the the point the wolf non-management has had a dramatic effect on elk populations above and beyond the other issues. Clearly there are other pressures, but not being allowed to manage wolf populations has had a nasty effect on the herds in those areas with robust wolf populations. Sure, we can reverse the trend, but I believe it takes a recognition of the fact that the actions (or inactions) of the last 10 years have been destructive. And I'm not advocating wolf eradication. I actually am sympathetic to the idea of a complete Yellowstone ecosystem where wolves are present, but I believe the days of blaming elk declines on various ecological factors with wolves as simply an equal contributor need to be behind us if we are serious about restoring elk numbers to better levels. Eighty percent elk herd reduction wasn't ever a stated goal of wolf reintroduction. We, as sportsman/conservationists, need to be as serious about their management as we are about habitat destruction and the other threats.

 

[Huntin4Elk]

No Sirree!

I can't blame the wolves for unpunched tags. I haven't taken the time to efficiently hunt. It is usually a drive up Friday and drive home Sunday hunt. There is too much ground to cover, and there are still elk in them thar hills. Right now the blame is all on me and my ever expanding waist line haha.

 

[MN Public Hunter]

MN Public Hunter, Before you open your mouth, you should find out why I'm asking. Yeah I'm from Montana. NO, I don't blame wolves. I see a lot of crap on the internet, and hear lot's of locals crying about not killing elk because of wolves. Just trying to get a feel on the attitude from REAL hunters, so you need not respond further. mtmuley

What do you mean REAL hunter? It's azzhats like you that make this site so stupid lately...saying certain people are not REAL hunters...what a douche. If you actually put any info in the first post maybe people would know what the f#ck you are talking about. Trust me...you want me to be an azzhat douche like you , I'm up for it cause I'm tired of all this Montana wolf talk.

 

[belly-deep]

There's much more at play than just wolves. Years of excessive tag sales, drought, etc, combined with wolves caused that crash.

Wait till the next legislature, they'll add test and slaughter onto that herd to try and eliminate brucellosis.

The excessive tag sales and drought occurred post-wolf.

In fact, the libs will tell you, before the wolf, human hunters couldn't kill enough elk for the park

 

[JohnCushman]

MN Public Hunter, Before you open your mouth, you should find out why I'm asking. Yeah I'm from Montana. NO, I don't blame wolves. I see a lot of crap on the internet, and hear lot's of locals crying about not killing elk because of wolves. Just trying to get a feel on the attitude from REAL hunters, so you need not respond further. mtmuley

Define "REAL hunter" douchebag

 

[mtmuley]

Easy solution for ya MN Public, don't read it. Or keep being an azzhat douche as you so eloquently put it. mtmuley

 

[spook12]

Ask for opinions, then get personal. LAME.

 

[THWAK1]

I can already tell this is going to be some good reading!

Yep, called that one early on!

 

[MN Public Hunter]

Easy solution for ya MN Public, don't read it. Or keep being an azzhat douche as you so eloquently put it. mtmuley

LOL, 31 posts and you are the expert here....Welcome to the site. I can see you are going to be REAL popular.

 

[mtmuley]

Nope, not an expert. Far as I know, post count doesn't make you one either. Neither does getting in a pissin match with guys like you. Hey johncushman, he jumped me first. I merely wanted some opinions from guys that hunt in Western wolf country. My fault for not wording in in a way all could understand. The name calling is interesting. Maybe I'll try it. mtmuley

 

[JoseCuervo]

Stupid thread is stupid.

 

[MN Public Hunter]

Nope, not an expert. Far as I know, post count doesn't make you one either. Neither does getting in a pissin match with guys like you. mtmuley

You are getting smarter already...

 

[noharleyyet]

More proof that woofs be the devil's spawn.

Trust me...you want me to be an azzhat douche like you , I'm up for it cause I'm tired of all this Montana wolf talk.

...like

The elk ate all the woofs in Texas....then we shot all the elk.

...carry on.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The excessive tag sales and drought occurred post-wolf.

In fact, the libs will tell you, before the wolf, human hunters couldn't kill enough elk for the park

Robert Fanning was saying the same thing (Too many elk).

The current drought in the RM west has been about 12 years, with a couple of wet ones scattered around. That causes nutritional deficiencies in cow elk, causing them to either not get pregnant, or to abort as the winter wears on.

The FEIS for wolf reintroduction talked about the need to scale back the license sales to make up for the increased predation by wolves. FWP didn't do that. They continued with the excessive tags for longer than necessary (for a variety of reasons). Did wolves have a huge part in the crash? Sure, but again, if we don't look at all of the factors, simply saying that wolves were the biggest cause isn't scientifically valid. It's cumulative - all of these things coming together led to the crash.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Hey, Ben, I'd like to apologize for the "disingenuous" comment. That wasn't a good word choice as it suggests that you are hiding some agenda or something, which I don't believe is the case. Plus, these confrontational rants aren't exactly consistent with the Godly character I feel I'm called to exhibit. So... sorry about that.

No worries on this end. It's a touchy subject regardless of which state we're talking about.

I was merely just making the the point the wolf non-management has had a dramatic effect on elk populations above and beyond the other issues. Clearly there are other pressures, but not being allowed to manage wolf populations has had a nasty effect on the herds in those areas with robust wolf populations. Sure, we can reverse the trend, but I believe it takes a recognition of the fact that the actions (or inactions) of the last 10 years have been destructive. And I'm not advocating wolf eradication.

110% with you there.

I actually am sympathetic to the idea of a complete Yellowstone ecosystem where wolves are present, but I believe the days of blaming elk declines on various ecological factors with wolves as simply an equal contributor need to be behind us if we are serious about restoring elk numbers to better levels. Eighty percent elk herd reduction wasn't ever a stated goal of wolf reintroduction. We, as sportsman/conservationists, need to be as serious about their management as we are about habitat destruction and the other threats.

I think we need to let the science dictate what how we manage all species, and more and more, it's clear that looking at the whole picture, wolves included, all leads back to habitat functionality and being prepared for wilder cyclical swings. Again, the science that's out there points to a lot of different causes (wolves very much included), but the cumulative effect is all that we see: Too few elk in some areas.

The Bitteroot study has shown that, as has the Absaroka Elk Ecology study. If elk get the nutrition they need, then they can withstand the predation pressure. If they don't, you end up with a crash no matter what. Wolves and other predators (including humans) accelerate those declines. I don't have a problem reducing wolf populations to help elk, but let's make sure that's the real issue before we jump in the helicopter and go all pigman on a recently delisted species.

 

[JohnCushman]

mtmuley...your PM's are unwelcomed...please stop messaging me

 

[mtmuley]

Got it. mtmuley

 

[Western_Hunter]

Lol this thread is funny! Stop being a bunch of girls. Yes the wolves are an issue in parts of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming, but no I don't think it has affected my outcome at the end of the year. Maybe I get fewer chances during the year or deal with elk that move more frequently, yes. As for MN Public Hunter, have you even hunted in Montana for elk?