School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[Deleted member 20812]

The FBI was who received the tips, they did not even pass the information on to the locals, which they are infamous for. The budget of the FBI last year was 8.7 billion. Cut it by a few billion and start putting cops at schools. Feds pass out grants like candy for all kinds of nonsense. Pass out grants for officers in schools, districts all over the nation would do it if they had the money.

Yes, the FBI got the tip, but to allege local law enforcement had no knowledge is disingenuous at best. The shooter was contacted nearly 20 times, including once where he had bullets at school.

I’m not saying the FBI shouldn’t have followed through on their end, but pinning it solely on them is short sighted, at best.

 

[Joe Hulburt]

Being married to an early elementary teacher of 25 years I've come to understand why this crap takes place. It's my opinion that the majority of these sociopaths could be identified before 2nd grade and they could be redirected if society cared enough to foot the bill. All the new regulations in the world can't stop them once they pass thru the system without consequences for their sociopathic ways. I wouldn't have let her take this path if I had any inkling how pathetic school administrators would be in 2018 regarding dealing with the 2% that don't have normal human function. The solution is very simple, treat the source! Of course that won't win any voters over.....I would expect more of the same.

 

[BrentD]

Sorta dumb but serious question, what could the FBI or local enforcement do? Take his guns away without due process?

I have wondered the same thing. There is lots of finger pointing, but it's not clear to me that the solution was or is anything remotely simple and legal.

 

[Straight Arrow]

If the government can’t figure out how to keep our children safe I am pretty sure the private sector could.

The "government" authority in public education is the same representative democracy that is the "government" authority at the national level in the form of Congress. The primary difference is that the local public education authority is a duly elected UNPAID VOLUNTEER school board. As someone who spent six years as a school board trustee dad, whose wife is completing her second term as a school board trustee grandma, and who volunteers daily in the school, I feel informed and compelled to express an opinion. Although it is clear that a large portion of local and county taxes go toward public education, it is also clear that school funding through mill levies is just about the only choice in taxation that allows a taxpayer to say NO. Weed control, roads & bridges, county health fiscal needs all just increase tax burdens without a vote. Consistently the only place for the taxpayer to resist increased taxation is for public education. Right or wrong, it typically results in real underfunding and fiscal shortfalls which hinder school systems from implementing widely agreed upon improvements ... perhaps not making the expensive decisions available to the "private sector" to keep children safe.

All administrative and fiscal educational decisions are arbitrated through the public open meeting process, where citizens, taxpayers or not, are allowed public input. IMO, it should be mandatory for school district taxpayers to attend a school district budget meeting to be informed prior to exercising their voting right. If a larger number of the taxpaying public became engaged and invested in the process of formulating and funding viable safety plans and protections for public school campuses, then I am confident we would see improvements.

 

[Sytes]

I have wondered the same thing. There is lots of finger pointing, but it's not clear to me that the solution was or is anything remotely simple and legal.

Always an intent to find blame though other than surveillance, there is nothing more. Set up a sting to see if subject intends to purchase with statements of intent... Otherwise hands tied.
Along with this the simple issue of man power. This "kid" (even though 19) is on the low end of focused targets. A couple people complained about his behavior though there are unknown variables and priorities for law enforcement to task man hours towards. Unfortunately, this one played out to a devistating level.

Just a terrible situation all-around and piss poor comment by our POTUS regarding our leading law enforcement agency that excels such thoughts. Not starting a political rampage, simply stating my thoughts as a fed LEO myself.

 

[RobG]

Always an intent to find blame though other than surveillance, there is nothing more. Set up a sting to see if subject intends to purchase with statements of intent... Otherwise hands tied.
Along with this the simple issue of man power. This "kid" (even though 19) is on the low end of focused targets. A couple people complained about his behavior though there are unknown variables and priorities for law enforcement to task man hours towards. Unfortunately, this one played out to a devistating level.

Just a terrible situation all-around and piss poor comment by our POTUS regarding our leading law enforcement agency that excels such thoughts. Not starting a political rampage, simply stating my thoughts as a fed LEO myself.

And these are the types of warning signs that alarm people:

Former cadets say they were surprised the awkward teen they remember from a couple years ago now stands accused of slaughtering students and staff. But, in retrospect, there were signs of trouble.


Kyle Ramos, who was the executive officer of the JROTC battalion, said Cruz spoke about guns and knives incessantly and liked to wear military-style clothing to school. He also bragged about shooting animals for fun.


“He told me he would attack little animals with pellet guns and stuff, and I was a little weirded out by that,” said Ramos, now 20. “Like squirrels and lizards and stuff.

 

[Sytes]

The cadet comments were in retrospect, right?

I loved my camo wearing garb and knives, etc. Heck the "Anarchist Cookbook" was a staple of fun reading material for us boys back in the '80's though never a remote thought about such. We talked hunting all the time... Kids yammering about a wounded animal in stupid kid manner that maturity would modify over time. Blasting gopher heads off with the .17 or .223, 762x39, etc...
Guess in my opinion, kids say some immature and stupid "stuff".
Heck, we made baking soda / vinegar bottle pressure "bombs" as we all were into the movie... Uncommon Valor and we all had our fun role... Blaster, Woogsie, etc. Sounds like rambling though based on sharing thoughts and even actions as kids, any number of those comments or actions could have led to "concern" though a few of us went on to law enforcement fields, federal prosecutor, military spec ops, etc... and at one time it was the battle between red and black ants... Mom's hairspray and a lighter... Roast 'em!

Or a few years ago a hunting guy chuckling over a grouse that got skewered by his arrow that stuck into a stump behind and the grouse spun like crazy on the arrow shaft until he could get there to put it out of it's misery.

Not sure how to fix a problem of this nature and really have no clue what FOUO LE Sensitive info was shared... One kid of thousands within 330,000,000 people make it an extreme challenge to prevent every possible from slipping through the cracks.

 

[RobG]

The cadet comments were in retrospect, right?

They always are...

I loved my camo wearing garb and knives, etc. Heck the "Anarchist Cookbook" was a staple of fun reading material for us boys back in the '80's though never a remote thought about such.

Bet you tried to smoke roasted bananas. Didn't work for us either.

 

[RobG]

In addition to the bananas, I remember instructions on how to make a silencer (sic) out of bottle caps or something like that, but the challenge was getting subsonic ammo. Lots of good stuff in there.

 

[Mthuntinfool]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but after reading the responses I figured I would add my 2 cents in...

When a tragedy like this occurs, people look for someone or something to put the blame on. The perpetrator was known to have violent tendencies, the warning signs were there, and yet no intervention happened before it was too late. I feel shootings receive more media coverage than other incidents due to the liberal stand of most media outlets. Look at the guy that drove a truck through a street crowded with pedestrians, he killed/injured as many if not more, but the news coverage of that was much less.
A gun is a tool, just like any other inanimate object. people can be killed just as dead with a hammer, kitchen knife, screwdriver, or vehicle. If someone wants to do harm to others, they will find a way. The criminal has no regard for the law, they will continue to get guns on the black market no matter what laws or bans are passed. These laws will only affect the law-abiding citizens that they are supposed to protect. Banning guns will do nothing but prevent legal minded people from protecting themselves.
This is a very volatile issue, and we as sportsman and gun owners need to be very careful of the image we present to the general populace. We cannot give them any more ammo to use against us to try and take away our second amendment rights. I own many guns, and I carry a handgun almost every day to protect myself and others if the need should arise.
The issue of these school shootings is a society problem, not a gun problem. our society is so detached from reality, and are exposed to violence daily on TV, video games, social media, they have no respect for life. And as a society we need to provide help and treatments for these mental illnesses, instead of people hiding it in shame for fear of being labeled and ridiculed.

Anyways, that's my opinion, take it or leave it...
Tanner

 

[Sytes]

In addition to the bananas, I remember instructions on how to make a silencer (sic) out of bottle caps or something like that, but the challenge was getting subsonic ammo. Lots of good stuff in there.

There was some crazy "how to" instructions within. Heh! Got our butts whooped one occasion when one item blew off the top of a garbage bin... Haha!

How to define intent to harm over kids being kids? Of course it was a different day and age though what made such a difference in the "day and age"???
In my opinion it is the family values have gone to shnitz..
Psychological profiling w/o an invasion of privacy is one hell of a slippery slope to step on... Our guesses are as good as the next post.
Makes me think of this when people bring up ideas such as ban the AR platforms,
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chic...reivik-prison-damaged-20170112-story,amp.html
77 people murdered in a country with strict regulations on possession of semi auto rifles... God loves the CNN "anchors" Don Lemon nuts that call the legal versions of AR's full auto...

But neither here nor there. Opinions are just that.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Sorta dumb but serious question, what could the FBI or local enforcement do? Take his guns away without due process?

Sadly you are right, it should be a crime to make a threat like he did leading up to this. Yes its freedom of speech but when exercising your right infrings on others you have now lost that right. If it were a crime then with legal authority the perpetrator and/ or his guardian if they are a minor, should be committed to psychiatric evaluations and all weapons be confiscated until deemed unnecessary.

Also, I think the term "slippery slope" should be banned. Its quite possibly the dumbest excuse for inaction I have ever heard.

 

[Zach]

Here's the reality, a lot of Americans think school teachers are over-paid. Nobody likes to pay a nickel in taxes. Many teachers spend money out of their own pockets so their students have basic school supplies.

I've seen people on this board howl, whine, moan and groan about how teachers are cutting a fat hog in the ass because they get summers off and still get paid for 12 months.

Everyone talks a good line of BS about how important an education is, everybody agrees. Trouble is, nobody wants to pay anything for it. They want educators, people that teach their kids, to make the same salary as a Wal-Mart greeter.

Now, ask yourself how keen these types are going to be, when it comes time to raise their taxes a buck, to fund a few armed security guards for their schools. I reckon they will be expecting those security guards to work for free, just like they expect teachers to do.

I can tell you that I'm in the minority of tax payers who believes that we should be trying to attract the best teachers by increasing the pay to a level that will attract the best. I don't care if my taxes increase to do it, education is an investment into the future. I don't want to live in a Country with a bunch of illiterate kids running around, turning into illiterate adults. All because their parents wanted to save a nickel on their tax bill, and have them being taught by teachers that they think should be making the same money as a burger flipper.

I think armed security guards are a good idea, but you better hope that you can cover their wages, insurance, and retirement with a bake sale...because the average tax payer isn't going to want to pay for it.

I have no problem with an additional amount of money going to schools and teachers. There needs to be more accountability from the parents perspective though, and the oversight from parents needs to be accepted in schools and action taken. Loose tenure, make teachers who "pass the buck" and send a kid through who has no business going on to the next grade accountable.

The problem with throwing more money is that if parents don't get involved in their kids lives and leave it to teachers there is a huge disconnect. Being a household that homeschools my wife and I are intimately involved in our kids education and who they are friends with. Both my wife and I attended private schools through high school, although my senior year I attended a public school. The difference in teachers, and in my case the private school teachers were paid considerably less than their public counterparts, was very evident. You may have had a few teachers who cared, but in my experiences(emphasis on the bolded) most of the teachers were going through the motions. I've seen it with friends who have become teachers. Once they had their lesson plan dialed in, it was cruise control. Then get tenure and count the days till retirement. YMMV. Again, MY experience. Oh, and my mother works at a local public school.

https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/high-school-teacher/salary
I'm sure there are multiple sites that give salary info, but I'm referencing this one. I'd be hard pressed to say the compensation is nickels and dimes or working for free.

 

[onpoint]

As I have followed this discussion, although I know it not to be so, I wonder if I'm the only one on here that became an adult before all this shit began to become commonplace and almost perceived as "just the way it is".
Before the (late) eighties, I never really heard about AR type platform firearms, never heard much about concealed carry, never heard much about a lot of the gun culture that exists today. Add to that the social and national media lunacy, extreme social and political polarization, etc, etc..........
Also never heard much about these incidents. Here's a graphic representation of the last sentence. Take the graph and it's source at face value - but note the trend

Chicken or egg question: what came first, the culture or the tool(s).
If indeed Buzz's "build more caskets" is his and other's true thoughts vs. tough guy bullshit bravado or, in Buzz's case , simple sarcasm - that's a real statement to me.

 

[ChrisS]

Sorta dumb but serious question, what could the FBI or local enforcement do? Take his guns away without due process?

Not to mention that the FBI gets about 1300 tips per day through their website, which staffed by a 20 or so people. Each field office receives dozens of tips per day as well. In a month, that could reach 50,000 tips. Put one hour into each tip, and over the year, that means ~280 full time employees.

Also, from Scalia's majority opinion in Heller: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

 

[elks]

Lots has been hashed out here, and reading the comments they just keep circling back around. Working in schools for 20 years now, I can make a few points.

We know that in any mass shooting, when the shooter is met with armed resistance they are, at the very least slowed down. There is no doubt about. We also know that the sooner armed resistance is met the lower the number of causalities. With Columbine we saw just how time is the most important factor to saving lives. Prior to Columbine it was pretty standard in such cases to set a perimeter, then work your way in room by room and spot by spot. This means that at columbine there were officers sitting outside waiting for the go ahead to enter while the gun man were still shooting. Now with our local officers our response plans are once there are 3 officers, they enter and go directly to the shots. There is no methodical clearing of rooms, they engage and stop the target ASAP. Knowing again that time lost equals lives lost. What does this response say about having armed resistance at schools? More than the single resource officer or an easy to identify security officer?

In my 20 years I have worked in a 1/2 dozen schools. In every single school I have worked there have been other teachers I would gladly trust with my life and with a firearm. It is sad that many have such low opinions of teachers and that as a whole our society does not honor teachers and the teaching profession. Often time when I mention concealed carry for teachers and staff, I get hammered not because of actual facts, but by perceptions. I ask his simple question... What is your perception of a teacher? What does a teacher look like/act/etc.? This perception is hard to overcome. As a teacher I stand 6' 2" weigh 280 pounds. I can lift a a Chevy 350 block with ease. In my school I also have a very good friend, the librarian, she is petite, soft spoken, very unassuming... In the fall we get together every week and share stories of hunting and shooting etc. In my school we also have 2 combat vets, etc. My principal grew up working the family outfitting business, etc. My point is simple, our schools are filled with all sorts of people with all sorts of backgrounds. As a teacher, I would love the opportunity to concealed carry. I would also have no issues if other in my school were also afforded the same ability. Do I feel it would change any dynamics of the student teacher interactions? Not likely, other than you would not see nearly as many videos where some thug decides to attack a teacher.

As a teacher and concealed carry permit holder, I am afforded the ability to carry through out my community. I can carry at the store, mall, movie theater, gas station, etc. I can carry at the park... I have taken the test training etc. I have met a minimum requirement for society to say that I am safe to carry. I carry for the safety of my self and for others. However when I am responsible for our kids, when I am the adult supervising 20+ student in my class or when I am in charge of lunch duty and watching 200 students eat, I am not allowed the same level of defense and protection.

I am not arguing that every teacher needs to carry, heck I am well aware that would be silly. But I also believe that our schools could benefit from having armed unidentified resistance. As it stands right now, despite having training, despite having the ability to potentially prevent such an act. My training forces me, school policy says, that should the worse case happen, I lock myself in my room, turn the lights off and hope when the door it opened it is the police and not the gunman.

I truly feel that even the possibility of meeting a concealed carrier is a deterrent to the crime. Also if the shooter engages an armed teacher or staff they now no longer have an uninterrupted access to targets. If the Cc breaks the cycles for even a few seconds we know that time is again lives.

There are many examples where a CC has stopped such rampages. In Texas at a movie theater, Colorado Springs Church, Seattle Shopping Mall...


So what I have done is presented the response... How can limit and prevent carnage as it happens, this approach might prevent some acts, but will not work over all and it is simply about limiting the damage when it occurs.

So that leaves us with the simple question of prevention... OK not simple at all...

 

[elks]

Ok so lets talk about prevention. We all know that mental health is the single underlying factor in all mass murder situations. So what can be done... I will not venture down the gun ban path at all. Simply put our country can not keep entire groups of people out, how are they going to keep guns out. Maybe is we were like Australia and everything entering was coming to an Island. But under the last administration we saw the government give guns to gang members and those guns came back and were used in crimes here...

For 20 years I have worked with the youth in both traditional school settings and in alternative education settings. In all that time I have had only a couple students who were so far off base they could do this... Granted we never know on all cases, but if you ask your kids right now or asked teachers, administrators, etc. Most can identify 1 or 2 kids who have a predisposition for such acts. These kids have a long history of problems...

I saw earlier that a single person asked, what do teachers do? If little Johny is writing dark things, into weird crap, etc. What do we do? We report it and let it move up the chain of command. Sadly however there is not the support needed for little Johny. Be it in the legal system (where most of these kids end up) or in the social/mental health services. A complete lack of resources. Yes Johny is likely from a broken home, he was likely mistrreated, maybe teased, maybe abused, etc. He is likely poor, etc. But despite knowing he as all this against him, there is really no place for him to go. For example, when I was principal we had a 6th grade student who had terrorized the elementary school. He was on an IEP for several issues. He was appointed a 1 on 1 aide to help him through the day. He had made it through elementary school only bcause the admin had not taken action. They had plenty of cause to have the child removed from school. At the middle school he had several issue. The one that finally allowed me to have the student expelled from the school. He was out on the balcony with his aide. She had told him no to something. At this point he freaked out sterted hitting her and was physically trying to push her off the balcony. That instance got him expelled and arrested and in the court system.

Since it was a small town there was no youth detention center. The kids was taken to a detention center 90 miles away. He had a bed at that facility for 2 nights until he was released because the bed was needed for a kid who had committed sex offense. Not ever 48 hours after being locked up he was released. Luckily he was not back at my school, but since I had the only middle school in the town the school was still responsible for providing this students with an education. So instead he met at the district office with a tutor. No mental health services, no facility for treatment. We all knew he was dangerous but what can we do? In high school that same students stole a car, committed several armed robberies, and is serving time in the Wyoming State Prision for having a shoot out with police after a bar robbery went bad.

The point, we all know kids who need lots of help. Every school has such ids, every student knows another students in a bad place. The student above was let down by the system. When he had some smaller problems he got away with them. When he assaulted and was attempting to push a teacher to her death he spent 42 hours locked up, he was given power by the system until one day he went to far and there were no options left.

So what can we do? Speak up, identify those who are having major issues, get them the counseling and support they need. If really bad lock them up. Looking at the chart above that shows the mass shooting timelines. Consider how our society has shifted in treating mental health.

Early on those with the worst mental health issues were identified and locked up. Today the same people once locked up and kept from society are instead drugged and sent out into society.

We really need to look at how we identify possible threats, how we support and help those who are suffering mental health issues and how we can get those with the worst intentions off the street for treatment.

Ultimately, it is everyone who has to work together. We can blame all sorts of causes and in many cases the cause is culmination of many things. But what we can not do is continue to ignore mental health and have drugs be the solution for mental health issues.

It is a scary thought but when do we look asylums and places for the mental ill to be???

 

[RobG]

In my opinion it is the family values have gone to shnitz..

I have consistently called BS on this claim. These horrific crimes are done by the outliers and the outliers have always been there. In fact, if I am interpreting the data correctly, our crime rate is way lower now than back in the day when we all supposedly had morals.

For example:

 

[vanish]

For those promoting arming teachers, what happens when one of the following two situations occur?

1.) Student steals the teachers weapon, turns it upon them.
2.) Teacher loses control.

I can buy the argument that putting a gun in the teacher's hand may reduce the number of lives lost when a bad situation occurs, but at what cost?

 

[Doublecluck]

Lots has been hashed out here, and reading the comments they just keep circling back around. Working in schools for 20 years now, I can make a few points.

We know that in any mass shooting, when the shooter is met with armed resistance they are, at the very least slowed down. There is no doubt about. We also know that the sooner armed resistance is met the lower the number of causalities. With Columbine we saw just how time is the most important factor to saving lives. Prior to Columbine it was pretty standard in such cases to set a perimeter, then work your way in room by room and spot by spot. This means that at columbine there were officers sitting outside waiting for the go ahead to enter while the gun man were still shooting. Now with our local officers our response plans are once there are 3 officers, they enter and go directly to the shots. There is no methodical clearing of rooms, they engage and stop the target ASAP. Knowing again that time lost equals lives lost. What does this response say about having armed resistance at schools? More than the single resource officer or an easy to identify security officer?

In my 20 years I have worked in a 1/2 dozen schools. In every single school I have worked there have been other teachers I would gladly trust with my life and with a firearm. It is sad that many have such low opinions of teachers and that as a whole our society does not honor teachers and the teaching profession. Often time when I mention concealed carry for teachers and staff, I get hammered not because of actual facts, but by perceptions. I ask his simple question... What is your perception of a teacher? What does a teacher look like/act/etc.? This perception is hard to overcome. As a teacher I stand 6' 2" weigh 280 pounds. I can lift a a Chevy 350 block with ease. In my school I also have a very good friend, the librarian, she is petite, soft spoken, very unassuming... In the fall we get together every week and share stories of hunting and shooting etc. In my school we also have 2 combat vets, etc. My principal grew up working the family outfitting business, etc. My point is simple, our schools are filled with all sorts of people with all sorts of backgrounds. As a teacher, I would love the opportunity to concealed carry. I would also have no issues if other in my school were also afforded the same ability. Do I feel it would change any dynamics of the student teacher interactions? Not likely, other than you would not see nearly as many videos where some thug decides to attack a teacher.

As a teacher and concealed carry permit holder, I am afforded the ability to carry through out my community. I can carry at the store, mall, movie theater, gas station, etc. I can carry at the park... I have taken the test training etc. I have met a minimum requirement for society to say that I am safe to carry. I carry for the safety of my self and for others. However when I am responsible for our kids, when I am the adult supervising 20+ student in my class or when I am in charge of lunch duty and watching 200 students eat, I am not allowed the same level of defense and protection.

I am not arguing that every teacher needs to carry, heck I am well aware that would be silly. But I also believe that our schools could benefit from having armed unidentified resistance. As it stands right now, despite having training, despite having the ability to potentially prevent such an act. My training forces me, school policy says, that should the worse case happen, I lock myself in my room, turn the lights off and hope when the door it opened it is the police and not the gunman.

I truly feel that even the possibility of meeting a concealed carrier is a deterrent to the crime. Also if the shooter engages an armed teacher or staff they now no longer have an uninterrupted access to targets. If the Cc breaks the cycles for even a few seconds we know that time is again lives.

There are many examples where a CC has stopped such rampages. In Texas at a movie theater, Colorado Springs Church, Seattle Shopping Mall...


So what I have done is presented the response... How can limit and prevent carnage as it happens, this approach might prevent some acts, but will not work over all and it is simply about limiting the damage when it occurs.

So that leaves us with the simple question of prevention... OK not simple at all...

Well said.. I have a aunt who is a special education teacher, before she was a teacher she spent 11 years With the department of corrections as a prison guard. My uncle is a high school physics teacher and avid competition pistol shooter. Both would gladly carry.