School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[dannyb278]

I will caveat this as a bit tongue in cheek, and is just intended to provoke thought:

So he was part of an extremely fringe group with radical ideology, so really a very close parallel with extremism within the Muslim culture. We also see that mass shootings and terrorism have a similar statistical impact on our citizenry.

Logically then, gun control could be viewed as equally as inappropriate/ineffective as the travel ban, or vice versa. Mortgaging rights for a temporary feeling of safety.

Tongue in cheek or not, your logic is only sound if this was a 1-time event, or repeated events with the same foundational framework. In most of these mass shooter school cases, being attached to a "fringe group" isn't even a component....I provided that info in response to your question as to where this specific shooter may got training.

What does seem to be patternable is that these are mentally imbalanced, white middle class males with legal access to firearms and a ignored history of red flags....I don't think it should be beyond the scope of the law to regulate some of these patterns in the hopes of minimizing these events. If that means more regulations on firearms as a component of that (because I know "gun control" is such a scary word around here) than so be it.

Heaven forbid any potential gun owner be required to take some basic competency evaluation or at least training like is required by most states to be able to use a gun to hunt, or for CC privileges. The unfortunate reality is that even in the military, I knew enough guys that in spite of years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in training, still probably shouldn't have been handling firearms. The 2nd might be a right, but it is not a right that should be kept regardless of personal responsibility and competence.

 

[cgarner]

Do people really believe a government takeover of the entire country is really a possibility? Who's heard the stat that less than 1% of the population is in the military? So that means that 99% of the population would let 1% takeover, it's ridiculous. The military might brainwash a bit, but there's NO way that every single member would up and turn on the greater population. In todays day and age with social media and the news being what it is, I don't think there's any way it could happen. The argument that these guns are to resist the government is ridiculous.

I think part of the whole idea of fighting the gov't isn't necessarily fighting the army. I know some people that like to point out what happened in New Orleans when the local authorities went door to door and confiscated guns. Even resisting local law enforcement is silly. There is only one way to fight authority in modern times and that is the judicial system. An AR-15 ain't going to solve the problem.

 

[cgarner]

I guess you can't see the point that is being made.

So what is your point? just curious.

Yes all deaths are bad, but just because people die from a number of items used in our daily lives doesn't mean we should not discuss the availability/ownership of guns when gun violence happens.

 

[Tradewind]

Ok, ,here a solution to protect schools and other buildings. a friend who does security put me on to this. He toured this facility liked what he saw. It's non lethal, so it can be deployed if it even looks like trouble and no one is permanently harmed

Maybe not perfect but a good first step:
"A remotely deployed threat suppression system that drenches the perp with a repulsive solution, impairing their ability to enact violence"

http://www.crotega.com/#glimpse-of-sentre

Or just google Crotega


It will at least turn the discussion towards safety and maybe not as much towards guns

Best of all, it alleviates the discussion/debate of whether to arm someone in a school

 

[MTGomer]

I think part of the whole idea of fighting the gov't isn't necessarily fighting the army. I know some people that like to point out what happened in New Orleans when the local authorities went door to door and confiscated guns. Even resisting local law enforcement is silly. There is only one way to fight authority in modern times and that is the judicial system. An AR-15 ain't going to solve the problem.

The Mujahadeen has persisted through 4 decades of conflict against the two greatest military superpowers in the world.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

The Mujahadeen has persisted through 4 decades of conflict against the two greatest military superpowers in the world.

Agree. It's not that the fight would be fair, but the fact that there could be a fight in the first place that makes the 2nd pertinent today.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Tongue in cheek or not, your logic is only sound if this was a 1-time event, or repeated events with the same foundational framework. In most of these mass shooter school cases, being attached to a "fringe group" isn't even a component....I provided that info in response to your question as to where this specific shooter may got training.

What does seem to be patternable is that these are mentally imbalanced, white middle class males with legal access to firearms and a ignored history of red flags....I don't think it should be beyond the scope of the law to regulate some of these patterns in the hopes of minimizing these events. If that means more regulations on firearms as a component of that (because I know "gun control" is such a scary word around here) than so be it.

Heaven forbid any potential gun owner be required to take some basic competency evaluation or at least training like is required by most states to be able to use a gun to hunt, or for CC privileges. The unfortunate reality is that even in the military, I knew enough guys that in spite of years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in training, still probably shouldn't have been handling firearms. The 2nd might be a right, but it is not a right that should be kept regardless of personal responsibility and competence.

I tend to agree with you, but I feel like it is only half the problem. I guess the point I was trying to make is that we have the inclination as a society to have knee jerk reactions when we are afraid. I am open to the ideas around controlling access to firearms.

What I see as the bigger problem, is people only arguing that they want to lessen the efficacy of the shooter, but seem afraid to get into the ideas that have driven school shootings up from 30 per decade in the 70s and 80s, to 60 per decade in the 90s and 2000s, to now on pace to have close to 180 in the 2010s.

Sometimes it feels like if the average American is pro-gun all they want to point to is desensitization to violence, and if they are pro-gun-control you dismiss it and focus solely on the guns. Very few people seem to be able to handle the idea that maybe the answer is some of each, and mentally it is much easier to cling to the clean conscience-friendly solution bouncing around in our echo chamber. Politics make it very hard to come up with good solutions, because usually each party is at least half wrong.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

I wonder how many people are killed daily from cell phone use in cars. BAN the CAR and or CELL PHONE. How about making it so that the cell phone will not work in car. It is all about people using any thing that will harm another person.

I understand your point but I think it is illegal in PA without a hands free devise.

 

[dannyb278]

Very few people seem to be able to handle the idea that maybe the answer is some of each, and mentally it is much easier to cling to the clean conscience-friendly solution bouncing around in our echo chamber. Politics make it very hard to come up with good solutions, because usually each party is at least half wrong.

Yes. absolutely this.

 

[LWC55]

Do people really believe a government takeover of the entire country is really a possibility? Who's heard the stat that less than 1% of the population is in the military? So that means that 99% of the population would let 1% takeover, it's ridiculous. The military might brainwash a bit, but there's NO way that every single member would up and turn on the greater population. In todays day and age with social media and the news being what it is, I don't think there's any way it could happen. The argument that these guns are to resist the government is ridiculous.

The problem I see is that firearms are the common denominator in all these shootings. The shooters all had different social statuses, age, background, political/religious affiliation, economic background, family situations, and mental factors.

The guns are the one thing there is a real chance at changing because it's an "item". We've been fighting a set of beliefs in various countries for decades, and getting no where. The thought that society can get everyone to fall in line with a common set of ideas is not going to happen. What is possible is controlling that item. Guns are meant for destruction. Whether it's destroying targets, game, or people. That's what they're for. I see nothing wrong with further regulating such an item.

Do people really believe that our government will last forever? For another 100 years...200? have you studied history past the last century? Every super power country/empire has fallen or been defeated over the course of history. Every one. Some from foreign powers and some from within. If you think this is just a fairy tale that will last forever, you should look back at history a little further. Heck even most of our grandparents or great grandparents had to at least envision the possibility of speaking German while WWII was ongoing. I think governments (both foreign and domestic) will be less likely to try and do something crazy to a Well Armed populous. I'm not a gun nut and I don't own multiple ar's or the type. But I'm not ready to give up my rights because some lunatic does crazy things.

I hate the mass shooting and especially the school shootings with every fiber of my body. I think we are too lenient on kids these days. There should be consequences for acting a fool and putting threatening posts on their social media. The FBI was apparently called at least twice about this kid in the months before this occurred and did nothing. There is plenty of blame to go around. I just don't think the gun should get the brunt of it, but it will.

 

[MTGomer]

To continue on with the theme of how people in our society think and act toward their fellow humans, below is a picture a friend of mine took of a note on her car today. The back of the note was filled with a rant i won’t post.
She is a disabled veteran, who served in Iraq.
Does this shit happen in other countries? I don’t really know.

‘Murican exceptionalism right here.

 

[Frenchy]

Ok, ,here a solution to protect schools and other buildings. a friend who does security put me on to this. He toured this facility liked what he saw. It's non lethal, so it can be deployed if it even looks like trouble and no one is permanently harmed

Maybe not perfect but a good first step:
"A remotely deployed threat suppression system that drenches the perp with a repulsive solution, impairing their ability to enact violence"

http://www.crotega.com/#glimpse-of-sentre

Or just google Crotega


It will at least turn the discussion towards safety and maybe not as much towards guns

Best of all, it alleviates the discussion/debate of whether to arm someone in a school

I like this. I wish more attention was given to this kind of solution. Seems something like this could be easily accepted by all those concerned. If we are discussion limitations on guns/ammo/clips all in an effort to reduce the carnage, then this seems to do the same thing.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Ok, ,here a solution to protect schools and other buildings. a friend who does security put me on to this. He toured this facility liked what he saw. It's non lethal, so it can be deployed if it even looks like trouble and no one is permanently harmed

Maybe not perfect but a good first step:
"A remotely deployed threat suppression system that drenches the perp with a repulsive solution, impairing their ability to enact violence"

http://www.crotega.com/#glimpse-of-sentre

Or just google Crotega


It will at least turn the discussion towards safety and maybe not as much towards guns

Best of all, it alleviates the discussion/debate of whether to arm someone in a school

The only thing I can see with this that would need to be addresses is its affect on people with health issues. It may have been mentioned but I didn't listen long enough. That is a great system and I think it needs to be shared with administrators around the country. Does it mention a cost?

 

[Tradewind]

The only thing I can see with this that would need to be addresses is its affect on people with health issues. It may have been mentioned but I didn't listen long enough. That is a great system and I think it needs to be shared with administrators around the country. Does it mention a cost?

I did not see any. Basically it is a sprinkler system.

They tried it out on a couple of tough ex military types. They lasted 30 seconds.

 

[88man]

The shooters have evil and the devil in their hearts and soul. The only thing that can stop a bad man is a good man! No law No regulation. Its just the environment we live in or like it was said the cost we bear being free. Possibly 50,000 suicides a year. Lots of crazy and empty souls & people being medicated numb. The best person to protect my family and myself is me. I need every bullet I can fit in that big clip. Glocks in the desk, under sofa, behind headboard, in truck and on ankle. Lots of bad people who are outta their minds & tons of desperate drug addicts who don't value life.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

The shooters have evil and the devil in their hearts and soul. The only thing that can stop a bad man is a good man! No law No regulation. Its just the environment we live in or like it was said the cost we bear being free. Possibly 50,000 suicides a year. Lots of crazy and empty souls & people being medicated numb. The best person to protect my family and myself is me. I need every bullet I can fit in that big clip. Glocks in the desk, under sofa, behind headboard, in truck and on ankle. Lots of bad people who are outta their minds & tons of desperate drug addicts who don't value life.

Was that a serious post?

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

I appreciate how much good, honest, respectful, discussion has taken place in this thread. It's one of the many reasons I love this forum.

I've been working with youth/teenagers, etc. for about 12 years through my church. One of the things that has stood out to me over the years is the falling respect for other people and human life. There are countless videos, with countless views, on YouTube, Facebook, etc. of people getting the absolute daylights beaten out of them, of people killing themselves, or other terrible acts. Many of these fights are several people against one and the one can only hope the beating stops before they get killed, let alone defending themselves against the crowd. These aren't movies or video games, these are videos of real things that happened and so many people don't seem to be phased by it anymore. I've been absolutely horrified by news stories of strangers not stepping in to help their fellow man who is in peril, dying on the street.

Whatever the root cause, I think that one of the biggest problems we have as a nation, and a world, is the lack of common, human decency towards other people. Unfortunately it seems to be even more present in the youngest around me. The days of settling a difference between two people with fist fight and black eye have been replaced with the days of a group strategically jumping a single person to exact revenge for an actual or perceived wrong.

As responsible gun owners we also have to acknowledge that the system is not perfect. These stories are so much harder for me to hear when the weapon used was purchased legally. To me it means that there was breakdown in the system somewhere. Now the FBI is saying that they did not properly follow up on tips that the shooter was dangerous. Haven't we heard that before? Who knows what the final answer will be, but we have to be willing to have open discussion and seek a solution. If a weapon can be purchased legally, by someone with a history of violence, mental illness (I know there many that aren't dangerous), and depression then there might be a problem with the system. Shoot, if AR-15's (any maybe other high capacity, semi-auto rifles) had a 21+ age restriction like handguns we might not be having this conversation today. It wouldn't solve the core problem, but it might help.

 

[88man]

Was that a serious post?

Yes. I believe there are Lots of crazy people in this country. In september I was burglarized. In the past few years my business was robbed and broken into many times and its not in a bad area.

 

[Irrelevant]

Remember if you see crazy report crazy, even if it's your family. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-news:page/in-the-news&utm_term=.3903594efa6a

 

[Zach]

Remember if you see crazy report crazy, even if it's your family. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-news:page/in-the-news&utm_term=.3903594efa6a

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/nikolas-cruz-fbi-warned/index.html