300 unlimited

[S.Dak Drifter]

I just hope the opportunity MT provides will remain for years to come.

 

[buffybr]

Where did I say the sheep recognize the park boundary? But, I've spent my share of time on the border of the park in 300 and with the amount of pressure it receives its a shitty hunt. Everyone knows the couple places a vast majority of the sheep are killed, you mentioned one of them. The sad part is, unless you have fog, low clouds or something that limits visibility during the short season in 300...nobody is going to kill a ram. Or if they do, its usually a barely legal 4-5 year old sheep. IF you get weather, they might wander between the various camps on the park line and someone can catch them in the right place.

That's exactly how Monty Schnur and his clients, as well as 70% of the tag holders "hunted" and still do hunt 300...its no secret. You always have a few people looking for a young, barely legal ram on Ramshorn, Fortress, Steamboat etc. country as well.

Like I said, when I spent time there right before the sheep season, I saw 3 legal rams in the very spot Schnur pulled in and set up his camp. The biggest of the 3 was no doubt 9-10 year old ram, broomed right at full curl, probably a 170 type ram. I stayed the whole season and those rams never came back out of the park, the weather was wayyyy too nice and flat too much traffic.

I believe going to LQ would also stop the killing of those young small rams over toward Ramshorn, hardly ever is an old sheep killed there, once in a while.

The reason I say it would be only serious sheep hunters that would apply, is because those rams aren't the transplanted mutants that you described (4.5 years old record book rams). They're a native herd that's been there forever and rarely do rams killed there break 170. Its also not a hunt that you drive down the road and use the mirror of the pickup as a rest to kill a 190+ ram like a friend of Grandfather's did in the glory days of Petty Creek.

Age alone certainly doesn't mean a big score if you're comparing breaks sheep with 300 rams...but I can assure you, your odds of killing a 4-5 year old B&C ram in 300 is about as likely to happen as packing that ram out of that country with your unicorn. You're comparing aardvarks and apples. The ONLY way you're going to kill a 160+ ram in 300 is if its 6-7+ years old, may not even happen then. I realize that its tough to pass a 4.5 year old ram when its standing by the truck and a B&C qualifier in one of the transplanted herds...just unfortunate rams like that never see 8-10 years of age. If they did, the hunters killing juvenile rams would actually have something if they killed those same rams when they're 8-10.

Most of the people applying for sheep in Montana are doing so because its Unit 300, even if it went LQ and had a late season, is not going to be an easy hunt. If someone applies thinking its lower rock creek, the breaks, upper rock creek, east fork of the root, anaconda, petty creek type easy sheep hunt...they'll likely not even going to kill a ram. Having a single tag holder or maybe two would give a person the chance to enjoy the hunt, rather than play border patrol and praying you'll be the guy in the right place IF a ram steps across the line.

I think only the serious sheep hunters would be applying in 300 if it went LQ and it would be a great hunt if you didn't have to dodge the idiots that hunt it with unlimited tags.

On the other hand, Montana does make a pretty good amount of revenue off that handful of sheep that live there and it does provide "opportunity" I suppose.

Been there done that, and the sheep that live there are very special, the way they're currently hunted, not so special. My opinion.

It's great that we all can still have our opinions.

No, you didn't say that sheep recognize the park boundary, I did. Sheep and just about all of the other animals in the park continually wander across the park boundaries throughout the year. Yes there are some great rams along the Park line in Unit 300. For most of the summer there are not very many people in there and the sheep are free to wander back and forth across the line. Then around the 1st of September a horde of orange pumpkins invade the area, and people like the outfitter who set up their camps where the rams have been bedding all summer, and the rams retreat south across the park line where there aren't any people. The sheep live in Bighorn basin until a dozen or more human camps set up in there.

I think that most sheep hunters (myself included) dream of a 190-200" plus ram, but when they get into the reality of a hunt, and especially at the end of their hunt, they "settle" for a legal ram. Many areas don't have the genetics for a 200" ram, regardless of the hunting pressure.

The 4.5 year old ram that I mentioned earlier was not a "transplanted mutant", but a ram from the superior horn growth genetics from Anaconda. When I mentioned that ram, I wasn't comparing aardvarks to apples, or even comparing it to a unit 300 ram, I was comparing it (from "one of the high quality ram units") to the 6.5 and 9.5 year old rams that I shot in unit 302. ( I think my 9.5 year old ram was the last ram killed when unit 302 was unlimited. Since then 302 is Limited Draw, and FWP has transplanted some superior genetics into that herd and now the rams in that area are growing larger horns. Even now with the "transplanted mutants" in the unit 302 herd I don't believe you can shoot a B&C ram from across the hood of your pickup.)

I believe that the hardest part of hunting sheep in Montana is drawing a tag (I've applied for 37 straight years without drawing), but other than tags that are valid when the sheep are down on their winter ranges, I wouldn't consider sheep hunts flat assed easy in 90% of the units. If I counted right, there are 44 sheep units in Montana, with 5 of them having unlimited tags. Many of the limited draw units only have 1 or 2 ram tags, so those lucky hunters have their unit all to themselves where they can "enjoy the hunt, rather than play border patrol and praying you'll be the guy in the right place IF a ram steps across the line." The 5 Montana unlimited tag units are the only bighorn sheep units in the world where anyone (neophyte or veteran sheep hunter, resident or non-resident) can buy a tag and go sheep hunting without a guide.

Like I posted earlier, the year that I hunted sheep in unit 300 I saw a 170" class ram the day before the season opened. I believe that if I had been the only hunter in there that year, I could have killed that ram. But maybe the outfitter or some of the other hunters that were in there also saw that ram, and it turned out that none of us shot him. So I applaud FWP for maintaining those 5 unlimited bighorn sheep units so every year at least 300 hunters can actually have the opportunity to hunt a bighorn ram.

 

[YoungGun]

I just hope the opportunity MT provides will remain for years to come.

As do I. Having the ability to play the game however you want, either through sweat equity in the unlimiteds, or through luck in the draw, is what it's all about. Sure some units and hunts can be frustrating with the "what ifs" and too much hunting pressure at times- but you're hunting wild sheep in some of the most scenic country- that's what the tag buys you. If it's just about killing a ram, or the inches of horn, there's a lot of great limited draw hunts that can cater to that too. But when it comes together in an unlimited unit, the amount of satisfaction is immeasurable.

Now if only Idaho would turn the Frank into an unlimited unit, or Montana look at making an unlimited archery hunt in the Hilgards...

 

[BuzzH]

It's great that we all can still have our opinions.

No, you didn't say that sheep recognize the park boundary, I did. Sheep and just about all of the other animals in the park continually wander across the park boundaries throughout the year. Yes there are some great rams along the Park line in Unit 300. For most of the summer there are not very many people in there and the sheep are free to wander back and forth across the line. Then around the 1st of September a horde of orange pumpkins invade the area, and people like the outfitter who set up their camps where the rams have been bedding all summer, and the rams retreat south across the park line where there aren't any people. The sheep live in Bighorn basin until a dozen or more human camps set up in there.

I think that most sheep hunters (myself included) dream of a 190-200" plus ram, but when they get into the reality of a hunt, and especially at the end of their hunt, they "settle" for a legal ram. Many areas don't have the genetics for a 200" ram, regardless of the hunting pressure.

The 4.5 year old ram that I mentioned earlier was not a "transplanted mutant", but a ram from the superior horn growth genetics from Anaconda. When I mentioned that ram, I wasn't comparing aardvarks to apples, or even comparing it to a unit 300 ram, I was comparing it (from "one of the high quality ram units") to the 6.5 and 9.5 year old rams that I shot in unit 302. ( I think my 9.5 year old ram was the last ram killed when unit 302 was unlimited. Since then 302 is Limited Draw, and FWP has transplanted some superior genetics into that herd and now the rams in that area are growing larger horns. Even now with the "transplanted mutants" in the unit 302 herd I don't believe you can shoot a B&C ram from across the hood of your pickup.)

I believe that the hardest part of hunting sheep in Montana is drawing a tag (I've applied for 37 straight years without drawing), but other than tags that are valid when the sheep are down on their winter ranges, I wouldn't consider sheep hunts flat assed easy in 90% of the units. If I counted right, there are 44 sheep units in Montana, with 5 of them having unlimited tags. Many of the limited draw units only have 1 or 2 ram tags, so those lucky hunters have their unit all to themselves where they can "enjoy the hunt, rather than play border patrol and praying you'll be the guy in the right place IF a ram steps across the line." The 5 Montana unlimited tag units are the only bighorn sheep units in the world where anyone (neophyte or veteran sheep hunter, resident or non-resident) can buy a tag and go sheep hunting without a guide.

Like I posted earlier, the year that I hunted sheep in unit 300 I saw a 170" class ram the day before the season opened. I believe that if I had been the only hunter in there that year, I could have killed that ram. But maybe the outfitter or some of the other hunters that were in there also saw that ram, and it turned out that none of us shot him. So I applaud FWP for maintaining those 5 unlimited bighorn sheep units so every year at least 300 hunters can actually have the opportunity to hunt a bighorn ram.

The Anaconda sheep were transplanted in 1967 from the Sun River, so yes, they are of the transplanted mutant variety Montana bighorn rams. Remember when Kish killed his ram there, IIRC, just shy of 200? Those sheep bit the dust and pretty much all the older age class rams died in 1991, again if IIRC. Only to recover and die off again about 8-9 years ago.

About at the peak of recovery after the 1991 die off, my Dad drew the Anaconda tag in 2005. The quality of the rams was not what it was prior to 1991, but there were some rams that were 7+ years old. I spent a pretty significant amount of time in the late 80's and early 90's looking at sheep in Upper Rock Creek and Anaconda...wasn't too tough to see multiple B&C qualifiers every day. At times, multiple 180+ rams in the same group. I spent a pretty good amount of time during the peak of the season when Dad drew his tag in 2005. Out of maybe 60-70 rams 5-8+ years old, I found 3 for sure B&C sized rams, another 2 that were probably close. Most all the rams that were 4.5+ were likely mid-160's type rams...obvious Sun River genetics. Definitely NOT nearly as good as prior to the 1991 die off, but compared to most anywhere else on planet earth, pretty awesome. The transplanted Montana sheep are such a warped reality of sheep found most anywhere else, you really cant compare it to anywhere else.

All that to say, the sheep found in the unlimited areas are not those type of sheep and not even close to the same genetics. They're a much different sheep, smaller body size, smaller horn bases, even different coloration for the most part. IMO, a much better trophy and certainly would be a much better hunting experience if it was more limited.

The way 300 is managed and hunted isn't doing justice to the sheep or those pursuing those rams, again IMO/E. If it weren't for the park, those sheep would get pounded flat...and NO way would it remain unlimited.

I think when I hunted it, there were maybe 30 people with tags, and it was still crowded, cant imagine what it would be like with 60+...

 

[geetar]

As do I. Having the ability to play the game however you want, either through sweat equity in the unlimiteds, or through luck in the draw, is what it's all about. Sure some units and hunts can be frustrating with the "what ifs" and too much hunting pressure at times- but you're hunting wild sheep in some of the most scenic country- that's what the tag buys you. If it's just about killing a ram, or the inches of horn, there's a lot of great limited draw hunts that can cater to that too. But when it comes together in an unlimited unit, the amount of satisfaction is immeasurable.

Now if only Idaho would turn the Frank into an unlimited unit, or Montana look at making an unlimited archery hunt in the Hilgards...

I’d be down with both of those plans. The Frank and the Hilgards.

 

[YoungGun]

The Anaconda sheep were transplanted in 1967 from the Sun River, so yes, they are of the transplanted mutant variety Montana bighorn rams. Remember when Kish killed his ram there, IIRC, just shy of 200? Those sheep bit the dust and pretty much all the older age class rams died in 1991, again if IIRC. Only to recover and die off again about 8-9 years ago.

About at the peak of recovery after the 1991 die off, my Dad drew the Anaconda tag in 2005. The quality of the rams was not what it was prior to 1991, but there were some rams that were 7+ years old. I spent a pretty significant amount of time in the late 80's and early 90's looking at sheep in Upper Rock Creek and Anaconda...wasn't too tough to see multiple B&C qualifiers every day. At times, multiple 180+ rams in the same group. I spent a pretty good amount of time during the peak of the season when Dad drew his tag in 2005. Out of maybe 60-70 rams 5-8+ years old, I found 3 for sure B&C sized rams, another 2 that were probably close. Most all the rams that were 4.5+ were likely mid-160's type rams...obvious Sun River genetics. Definitely NOT nearly as good as prior to the 1991 die off, but compared to most anywhere else on planet earth, pretty awesome. The transplanted Montana sheep are such a warped reality of sheep found most anywhere else, you really cant compare it to anywhere else.

All that to say, the sheep found in the unlimited areas are not those type of sheep and not even close to the same genetics. They're a much different sheep, smaller body size, smaller horn bases, even different coloration for the most part. IMO, a much better trophy and certainly would be a much better hunting experience if it was more limited.

The way 300 is managed and hunted isn't doing justice to the sheep or those pursuing those rams, again IMO/E. If it weren't for the park, those sheep would get pounded flat...and NO way would it remain unlimited.

I think when I hunted it, there were maybe 30 people with tags, and it was still crowded, cant imagine what it would be like with 60+...

I have to think a lot of that is nature vs nurture, too. If you took a breaks ram and dropped him off as a yearling in the Beartooths, he'd probably end up good sized if he figured out what the hell had just happened to him and how to survive a REAL winter. But I doubt he'd ever break 200", even if his padre and madre had the genes for it. Now I know Canmore is cold and snowy, and still produces some fantastic rams, so nature has a lot to do with it- but the 4.5 year olds in the breaks that are busting 190" compared to the unlimited rams have a consistent year round food source and a much less "stressful" life. I'll agree 100% that these mountain sheep make a better trophy- but I'll take opportunity and hunting every year over applying 35 years for a tag I may not draw. Just my opinion, I know- but I hope I'm not the vocal minority, as I'd sure like to see future generations able to hunt the "unlimiteds" instead of just hearing stories about it, that way maybe they can learn that they can work for their successes (and hope for a little luck) instead of just waiting for the day it finds them.

 

[YoungGun]

I’d be down with both of those plans. The Frank and the Hilgards.

Let's all write some senators.... -> 🏔

 

[buffybr]

The Anaconda sheep were transplanted in 1967 from the Sun River, so yes, they are of the transplanted mutant variety Montana bighorn rams. Remember when Kish killed his ram there, IIRC, just shy of 200? Those sheep bit the dust and pretty much all the older age class rams died in 1991, again if IIRC. Only to recover and die off again about 8-9 years ago.

About at the peak of recovery after the 1991 die off, my Dad drew the Anaconda tag in 2005. The quality of the rams was not what it was prior to 1991, but there were some rams that were 7+ years old. I spent a pretty significant amount of time in the late 80's and early 90's looking at sheep in Upper Rock Creek and Anaconda...wasn't too tough to see multiple B&C qualifiers every day. At times, multiple 180+ rams in the same group. I spent a pretty good amount of time during the peak of the season when Dad drew his tag in 2005. Out of maybe 60-70 rams 5-8+ years old, I found 3 for sure B&C sized rams, another 2 that were probably close. Most all the rams that were 4.5+ were likely mid-160's type rams...obvious Sun River genetics. Definitely NOT nearly as good as prior to the 1991 die off, but compared to most anywhere else on planet earth, pretty awesome. The transplanted Montana sheep are such a warped reality of sheep found most anywhere else, you really cant compare it to anywhere else.

All that to say, the sheep found in the unlimited areas are not those type of sheep and not even close to the same genetics. They're a much different sheep, smaller body size, smaller horn bases, even different coloration for the most part. IMO, a much better trophy and certainly would be a much better hunting experience if it was more limited.

The way 300 is managed and hunted isn't doing justice to the sheep or those pursuing those rams, again IMO/E. If it weren't for the park, those sheep would get pounded flat...and NO way would it remain unlimited.

I think when I hunted it, there were maybe 30 people with tags, and it was still crowded, cant imagine what it would be like with 60+...

Yes, I remember when Les Kish shot his 50" ram from the Anaconda herd. At that time he was a pharmacist at our local K-Mart.

I agree that hunting in a limited draw unit is a much better hunting experience than hunting in a crowded unlimited unit, but like I posted earlier, is that isolated hunting experience for just a few lucky hunters that draw a limited tag better than the opportunity for many hunters to actually hunt sheep in a crowded unlimited unit?

I also agree that without Yellowstone Park on the south side of unit 300 is the only reason that there are occasionally large horned rams in that portion of the unit. And that is also the reason than the sheep herds in the north half of 300 don't have the number of large horned rams as those herds don't have a HUNTERS DO NOT CROSS line to escape to and rams are shot before they can grow to

Biologists, just like the rest of us, often have differing opinions on wildlife management. One school believes that isolated herds of animals will interbreed to the point that many "desirable" characteristics are surpressed, and another school believes in the purity of the herd.

I think that most hunters are more impressed with horn, antler, or body size of the animal they kill than they are with the purity of the herd. I only went on my first sheep hunt 41 or 42 years ago, and until this conversation, I thought that transplanting "new blood" into existing sheep herds enhanced the population, and it never occurred to me that "The transplanted Montana sheep are such a warped reality of sheep found most anywhere else."

 

[geetar]

Let's all write some senators.... -> 🏔

They’ll be so glad to get mail that doesn’t involve Covid 19 that they might pull it off

 

[BigHornRam]

That ram Les shot was a mutant. I think it was a Marco Polo bighorn cross.