Went to a Sportsmen For Wildlife Meeting Today..

Presented in Thompson Falls by the Montana chapter of SFW. Rusty Wickman gave the presentation outlining the need for reducing the number of wolves in order to get our deer and elk herds back.
Main thrust of the meeting as I saw it was "wolves are killing all your deer and elk, everyone needs to join SFW since they are the ones fighting for us sportsmen against wolves. Also, they are the orginization that will work to force FWP to work for us instead of special interest groups."

At some point in the presentation, there was an offhand remark made that in Helena working with the legislature and FWP there are other conservation orginizations who are basically in FWP's backpocket and just tell FWP they are doing a good job instead of holding their feet to the fire. (this isn't a direct quote, just my best attempt at remembering what was said)

Rusty's presentation garnered a highly emotional response from most of the audience as they expressed their frustrations with the wolf situation and their desire to see the number of wolves drastically reduced. I could see most of the audience figuratively pulling out their wallets to lend their support to this group even before the presentation was over.

When it came time for the question and answer session there was a lot of hand-wringing over the agenda of the wolf huggers and incompetant government agencies. Softball questions that only served to further the emotional response that SFW wanted to see in my opinion.

When I raised my hand I asked the question of why I should join SFW when there are other less controversial conservation groups I could support in light of what is happening with the parent orginization of SFW in Utah. I mentioned the lack of financial transparency and accountability in reguards to auction and raffle tags with the Convention.
I also asked about Don Peay's comments saying that the North American Model for Wildlife is socialism. Their response is that he was taken way out of context and that he fully supports the North American Model.
I asked about SFW's stance on the Elk Management Plan once we do get wolves under control and if they supported raising the numbers of elk in this state. I pointed out that even in areas where wolves are devistating elk numbers several of those units are over objective and FWP is legally bound to manage for the objective.
I stated that I totally object to the privitization of wildlife and transferrable landowner tags that can be sold to the highest bidder. I was assured that they opposed that also.

One other statement that I think worth mentioning and was a direct quote. "All the money that is raised in Montana, will stay in Montana."


Paul Fielder, who represents region 1 for the Montana Trappers Association and serves on the MTFW& Citizens Advisory Council was there as a guest speaker with a presentation on trapping wolves. As I understood it he is not a SFW member but came to speak on trapping and access issues.
He spoke after I raised the question of financial transparency and urged the crowd that it was very important that they understand where their money was going.

So in light of today's presentation, I wanted to start this thread as a way to congeal some of the arguments of why SFW is not an orginization I want representing me , based on their past history and the results in states where they have worked for years.

I will be emailing a link to this thread to Rusty Wickman, Paul Rossignol, and Paul Fielder inviting them to participate in this discussion. Paul's wife Jennifer is running for office this fall and this might be a good chance for her to gain some insight as to why not all sportsmens are gung ho for SFW.

Please include links to some past discussions we've had in the past and feel free to add information that is pertinent to this discussion. Also, I'm operating on the assumption that these guys are genuinely concerned about the wolf situation and may either not be aware of some of the controversy surrounding SFW or may have just been drinking the kool aid for too long. My point? Don't make this personal, let's keep it informative so others who are thinking of joining SFW can make an informed decision.

Thanks, Gerald

I would just tell them to use the search function, there is about 5 hours of solid reading there on why I wouldn't trust the SFW with a turd, let alone bending the ear of FWP.

If my choice was wolves or SFW/BGF, I will take the wolves. I liken the SFW/BGF to an internal hemmorrhoid poking its ugly head out of the ass of some fat frickin road hunter. It needs to be excised and cauterized..

Gerald - I am going to search my files and give you the best historical recount I can. I will give you links to other threads where many of these topics have been discussed. I will try to have it done by Monday morning.

Thanks for raising the questions. I suspect most donating and most attending that event also want what is best for Montana and our wildlife. The accounts of SFW/BGF actions that have been posted on these threads, all of which have supporting evidence, hardly shows behavior that is becoming of a group, or leaders of a group, that is working for the average guy.

Hopefully some will drop in and look. If they read the evidence and still want to support SFW, that is up to them.

I do warn you in advance, some of these links and threads can get pretty ugly at times. Some may say it was picking in SFW. When you are taking positions that screw over the average hunter and angler, expect to be a target to those who are passionate about hunting and fishing.

In every event where SFW was taken to task on this site, the predicted outcomes turned out to be true, and everything SFW predicted or stated turned out to be false. Every time, not just most of the time.

I have a softball question for them.

Looking at their website, their entire agenda is based on controlling wolves. Based on what you gathered from the meeting, they do not agree with FWP management numbers. What number would they like to see? Easy question, give me a number.

Gerald, I think you threw them a great softball question when you asked them about the MT elk management plan. So, I ask them here, if any of them do in fact drop in - Why is SFW silent on the Montana Elk Management Plan, when that plan requires that we continue to issue 450 cow elk B tags in the Madison Valley this winter, when that plan requires that we keep the Paradise Valley herds at current levels, when that plan states that all but two of the Bitterroot units are at, or over, elk objectives? Why is SFW so silent on the most important topic to elk abundance in Montana?

Another softball question to those SFW who will drop in to read - Where were you when the stream access bill was introduced in the MT legislature in the 2011 session? Every hunting and angling group in the state was their in protest, with one noted exception, SFW.

Or, if SFW was there, I must have missed it.

It is quite coincidental that SFW-UT fought for and lobbied in support of a bill that overturned a UT court decision that provided Utah anglers the same great stream access we enjoy in Montana. Now, UT angles are stuck with a terrible stream access law that came as a result of the bill UT-SFW lead the charge on. Is it merely coincidence that UT-SFW has a bent against their resident anglers, and within a year afterwards, when SFW had a chance to change that image here in MT, MT-SFW was a no show?

Gearald

" I stated that I totally object to the privitization of wildlife and transferrable landowner tags that can be sold to the highest bidder. I was assured that they opposed that also."

"Assured", "Trust us", and other words SFW are so good at using. Take another 5 hours and read what is on Monster Muleys too. Just search for the topic "Don Peay and Randy Newberg Debate". There is enough info on that thread alone to be scared of anything SFW "Assures" you of in your great state of MT. Several good emails straight from the horses mouth (DKPEAY) posted by Randy. Most laughable to the average hunter who believes in the North American Model.

Trust me, once the "tick" has dug in, it will be VERY hard to dig out.

Best of luck in your choice.

Thanks guys,
This is the kind of things I'm looking for.I know I'm asking you to repeat some of the heavy lifting from before. I only found out about this meeting this morning and when I tried to pull up some of the old threads where a lot of this has been rehashed I wasn't able to find much.

I was able to find this thread...

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=246130

Cliff notes version- NRA, SCI and Congressional Sportsmens Caucus blast SFW for misrepresenting their positions on the wolf delisting debate.

TR175,
Got a linky? I've read all them but I'm slow at finding them all again. I'm not that familiar with navigating the MM site.

Assured", "Trust us", and other words SFW are so good at using

Click to expand...

I understand. I can "assure" you that "trust us" ranks right up there with words like "once again SFW has led the fight in getting the grey wolf delisted" as a way of gaining my support.

When asked if I wanted to join I deferred with the explanation that if I did spend money supporting an organization, it would probably be an organization like the Montana Sportsman's Alliance or a similar group.

The person I was speaking with shook his head and remarked that I should watch out with some of those groups. I wonder if any persons of dubious character from that group or similar groups have had the chance to spread their infectuous influence on this pristine site?

I do happen to remember this article.http://www.hcn.org/blogs/range/sportsmen-stab-theodore-roosevelt-in-the-back

http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/...cle_dfb5fe10-8570-11e1-99d1-0019bb2963f4.html
And it seems I read this article at some point as well.

Cliff notes version- Op-ed articles articulating why they are opposed to SFW

A few more to keep folks busy with a little background work.

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=246163 (SFW hatchet squad sent out to try kill MT/ID wolf delisting and calling NRA, B&C, SCI, and CSF "suppposed hunter" groups.)

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=246173 (SFW rebuttal to the NRA beat down, and then more of their hatchet squad trying to kill MT/ID wolf delisting.)

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=249475 (SFW and Don Peay, having to explain how they hand planted their AK-SFW President as AK G&F Director, only to have him get hammered for illegal guiding and outfitting)

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=250380&page=2 (Link to the monster muley thread doesn't work, as dkp put is foot in his mouth so bad that Brian, the owner of MM, pulled the thread. The schooling given to those folks was a classic. I would pay Brian for the archives of this thread, just to post it here for entertainment)

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=249798&page=6 (Where post #16 got cut, pasted, and re-pasted to almost every hunting forum.)


http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=250368 (AZ SFW tag theft attempt)

http://www.adn.com/2012/03/03/23505...2/03/03/235050...#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy (AK - SFW trying to get private wildlife permits and Don Peay being quoted as the NA Model is akin to socialism)

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...z=show_thread&om=17620&forum=DCForumID5&omm=0 (SFW hammering me on the wolf delisting issue, and they ended up looking like fools)

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...z=show_thread&om=17636&forum=DCForumID5&omm=0 (Simpson-Tester debate)

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/19303.html (Debate thread)

Monster Muleys is loaded with threads of this stuff. I will try to find time to grab a few more of them.

Note, almost all the threads where Hunt Talkers are chiming in have citations or links to support their point. No links or citations provided by anyone of the SFW defenders on these threads.

Just in case you have a headache from reading all the links Big Fin added ( thanks Randy) here's another link that is a bit on the lighter side of things.
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=250380 (Don Peay calls out Ben Lamb)

I wonder if Ben Lamb could have been one of those guys I was warned about? I guess I'll never know for sure. Ben if you read this, I want you to know I'm going to skip any threads that you author just in case you could be a bad influence on me.

Oh, I forgot to mention the two page spread in the free issue of the magazine that was handed out congratulating all those who "participated in our wolf hunting contest for doing their part to control aggressive predators."
It was mentioned that they were sponsoring another contest this year to try and encourage wolf hunters to chase wolves.
I found it ironic that one of the successful hunters was a guy that goes by the name of Matt Clyde and he was posing with a beautiful black female wolf that just happened to be the first wolf kill in the lower 48 featured on a popular national TV show.

Does this look familiar Crittergetter?

I wonder if Matt Clyde's hunting partner is an ardent SFW supporter?

I include this to show that not all of the people who oppose SFW's agenda are wolf hugging hippies without any street cred when it comes to wolf hunting. http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=249122 ( Matt Clyde and Randy Newburg's wolf hunt)

Gerald Martin said:

I wonder if Matt Clyde's hunting partner is an ardent SFW supporter?

Click to expand...

They must both be. After all, everyone knows SFW led the way to make sure there was a delisting in the first place. FACT!!!

FACT!!!

Click to expand...

and in caps yet to boot. I bow before your superior argument, Maestro.

A bump to bring it back to the top. I've gotten some back channel feedback on this thread already, haven't heard anything back from anyone associated with SFW.

Feel free to add any new links if you are so inclined.

Gerald Martin said:

Presented in Thompson Falls by the Montana chapter of SFW. Rusty Wickman gave the presentation outlining the need for reducing the number of wolves in order to get our deer and elk herds back.

Main thrust of the meeting as I saw it was "wolves are killing all your deer and elk, everyone needs to join SFW since they are the ones fighting for us sportsmen against wolves. Also, they are the orginization that will work to force FWP to work for us instead of special interest groups."

Click to expand...

This is my experience with SFW in a few states. Personally, I like Rusty and think he's a decent guy. I disagree strongly with him on several issues. They also come across as simply an arm of the MT Republican party and tied in with folks like Toby Bridges, Gary Marbut, Paul Ellis and UPOM among others (same groups who tried to privatize wildlife last session).

This is the general thrust of every presentation given by SFW in the west. Predators are taking your opportunity. They don't present any fact, but they do have some fancy power points with cherry picked quotes from people like Charles Kay, etc. They never talk about habitat, conservation or self regulation.

FWP works with everyone. It's their constitutional and statutory charge. They have to take into account the diverse number of folks, and varying viewpoints when it comes to wildlife management.

When I raised my hand I asked the question of why I should join SFW when there are other less controversial conservation groups I could support in light of what is happening with the parent orginization of SFW in Utah. I mentioned the lack of financial transparency and accountability in reguards to auction and raffle tags with the Convention.
I also asked about Don Peay's comments saying that the North American Model for Wildlife is socialism. Their response is that he was taken way out of context and that he fully supports the North American Model.
I asked about SFW's stance on the Elk Management Plan once we do get wolves under control and if they supported raising the numbers of elk in this state. I pointed out that even in areas where wolves are devistating elk numbers several of those units are over objective and FWP is legally bound to manage for the objective.
I stated that I totally object to the privitization of wildlife and transferrable landowner tags that can be sold to the highest bidder. I was assured that they opposed that also.

Click to expand...

Randy's provided the links with enough evidence to show that the organization, and it's leaders, are the leading purveyors of privitization in the west. I've heard SFW in other states say that they're opposed to, or haven't taken a position on, transferable tags, yet they are the ones leading the charge to do so. AZ is the latest example of this.

One other statement that I think worth mentioning and was a direct quote. "All the money that is raised in Montana, will stay in Montana."

Click to expand...

You'll never know if any goes back to UT or not. This goes back to the heart of the issue with SFW in UT and elsewhere - there is no fiscal accountability.

At some point in the presentation, there was an offhand remark made that in Helena working with the legislature and FWP there are other conservation orginizations who are basically in FWP's backpocket and just tell FWP they are doing a good job instead of holding their feet to the fire. (this isn't a direct quote, just my best attempt at remembering what was said)

Click to expand...

To me, this shows a huge disconnect from the rest of Montana's conservation community. Their leaders have sent oput emails saying that they will "bury" groups like the Montana Wildlife Federation and Montana Sportsmen's Alliance. They never bothered to reach out to them and try to work with them. They're competition to the SFW franchise.

SFW's track record in Montana is wide open for all to see:
Tried to kill Simpson/Tester
Tried to force the loss of $24 million in PR/DJ funds to MT
Abandoned everyone on access
Take credit for work they didn't do
Try to discredit and lie about organizations they dislike
Don't show up when it really matters
Only focus on one thing in hopes that you don'y find out about the others

They're the used car salesman in the Conservation World.

They're the used car salesman in the Conservation World

Click to expand...

Now Ben, don't you think that's being a bit unfair to used car salesmen?

Gerald Martin said:

Now Ben, don't you think that's being a bit unfair to used car salesmen?

Click to expand...

Not really.

One other thing: They had Champ Edmumds, a house member from Missoula/Lolo stand up and identify himself as a board member and member of the legislature. He then went on to testify at a FWP Commission hearing as both. That's highly unethical.

Champ Edmunds, by the way, voted wrong on almost every sportsman's bill in the legislature. He voted yes on HB 309 (the ditch bill) and yes on SB 255, which would have commercialized wildlife. Champ voted to defund Habitat Montana, eliminate our wolf plan (which got us delisting) and basically hand the whole shooting match over to the outfitters and landowners.