Shoot out in Sula Basin

[shoots-straight]

This is an ongoing problem and always will be. Why, we don't punish the offenders. Not just in the outdoors but in all walks of our society. Until we start to hold people accountable for their actions, truly hold them accountable, we will always have these types of issues. We have grown soft as a country and everybody knows it.

So if that's not going to happen, ( and there's reason believe that it's not), what do you suggest?

 

[shoots-straight]

Buzz, do you really think the percentage of jackasses is that high? I don't think this is about kids, it's about dumb adults. I can't imagine taking my kid hunting somewhere I knew there'd be other hunters - especially mobs of them. In fact, it was November this year before he saw another hunting in the field while hunting.

So do you consider yourself average Joe Hunter?

 

[MTlionchaser]

Okay well this is my first post on here. I have watched those elk for lots of years. It is disgusting what happens down there. One big demise of the elk herd down there was when they opened cow elk for everyone. It was a warzone the year they slaughtered over 400 elk in a weekend. Then top it off with the wolves and everyone wonders why there is no elk down there. These kids are not being taught to hunt but rather to kill. I saw that heard of elk in there this year and every time I saw them they had there tongues hanging out like a whipped puppy. I am all for getting the youth to hunt because they are the future of us. But if they can not be taught to go out and enjoy the hunt and not the kill we are doomed. It is sickening that a newspaper article is wrote about this as we do not have a hard enough time keeping black eyes away from the sport. So something has to be done that will not allow irresponsible adults to take advantage of our youth. That's my 2cents. I have been lurking around this forum for awhile and it seems to be a good one.

 

[BuzzH]

Greenhorn,

I dont know, I could be wrong...but JFC, have you ever been to Seeley Lake? Sula? Superior? Libby? T.Falls? Darby?...all carney retirement communities, I'm not BSing.

Lots of Missoula people I know were all happy about "having cow tags for the next_____years" until their kids turned 16.

I think party hunting in Montana is a huge problem and is almost accepted as part of the "way we've always done it"...I really do.

 

[tjones]

Sure it counts if an afternoon of target practice is on the slate. If a Mentored/Youth hunt is on the Docket I would think that the State that issued the tag would have the right to make sure that the Mentor met some minimum requirements.

4 year olds with guns thread.


#174
01-29-2013, 08:44 PM
spook12
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: western arkansas
Posts: 1,667

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones
Are all parents responsible parents?


Non issue they are the parents.

#175
01-29-2013, 08:45 PM

 

[Lawnboy]

Greenhorn,

I dont know, I could be wrong...but JFC, have you ever been to Seeley Lake? Sula? Superior? Libby? T.Falls? Darby?...all carney retirement communities, I'm not BSing.

See I'm not the only one that knows this.

 

[RobG]

This is an ongoing problem and always will be. Why, we don't punish the offenders. Not just in the outdoors but in all walks of our society. Until we start to hold people accountable for their actions, truly hold them accountable, we will always have these types of issues. We have grown soft as a country and everybody knows it.

They did write tickets for the actual crimes, but you can't really do much about the bigger issues when you get a big group of people. The problem is that it is not illegal to shoot wildly into a herd of elk even if you wound several. While it is illegal to kill more than one, with everyone shooting how are you going to tell? Then when it is all over the fights break out over who elk is whose.

 

[spook12]

I went back and checked that out Tony, I stand by what I said then. I believe it should be left to the parent to decide weather or not their kid is ready to hunt or not. If they decide that they want their kid to participate in a State run Youth/Mentor hunt I would expect them to follow the rules just like I would expect from any other tag holder. I also expect that the pros whos job it is to plan and administer the hunt do so in a senseable manner.
This hunt as described in the link that Ben provided looks like it was set up to fail. It couldn't have been screwed up any worse if they had tried.

I have absolutely no idea if this hunt should have taken place, I'm inclined to agree with S.S. and Buzz and others who have said that it shouldn't. I do know without any doubt that their are species,and locations in MT. that can have Youth hunts that if structured properly would not have any more game violations take place than an Adult only hunt.

 

[CabinFever]

Age restriction is not going to reduce this type of crap. Short of a gene pool extermination, we simply have to endure the stupid parents...
Parents need hard fines and community service (speak at hunter ed courses) for all who broke the law! A 2 year ban on hunt / fish and a probation of 10 years. The law becomes the "parent" for these kids. They need to feel the sting.

Simply put:

Is that brandenbowhunter?

 

[belly-deep]

I think it was breaksrunner that said, "theres 2 things that will make people do things they normally wouldnt...money and elk".

So true...

John Barsness says its antelope and elk.

I'd say its all three.

 

[RobG]

...

 

[Deleted member 20812]

The problem is that it is not illegal to shoot wildly into a herd of elk even if you wound several.

You might want to check up a little more on that.

 

[RobG]

You might want to check up a little more on that.

What regulation would be broken? And how would you even enforce this?

 

[teamhoyt]

the problems with what and how parents teach/raise their children are way more widespread than just the hunting world. I can't say I had a flowery childhood growing up and I can't say I didn't get what I deserved. What I can say is it made me who I am today. If parents don't show one another respect, the kids won't show them respect or anyone else, let alone the animals they hunt. JMO

 

[cur dog]

Does Montana Law say how many people each person over 18 can mentor at one time?

I reckon boy scout troop 5 with 20 youth hunters and a troop leader would be all good?

Bottom line, the antlerless youth hunt needs to just go away. The number of adults that shoot elk for their kids, dont watch their kids, dont properly educate/mentor isnt worth the pain in the ass this hunt has created since its inception.

I cant tell you how many times I heard, "well for the next 4 years looks like I have a cow tag" from adults...in reference to their kids ability to hunt cows.

I'd bet 50% or more of the youth cow harvest is shot by adults, I bet higher than that in some areas of the state.

Time to end the youth cow hunts I'm afraid...which really is too bad.

From what you and others describe of local hunters, the end result would have been the same if it was adult only. Don't Montana sportsmen police their ranks? Taking opportunity away from junior hunters sounds like a lousy idea to me.

 

[BuzzH]

There needs to be a major culture change in Montana...many havent left 1960 in regard to how they hunt.

Pretty tough to police our own ranks when lots of the rank and file, dont have a problem...with the problems.

Thats apparent from this situation...nearly all of them had no problem with what they did.

I agree that taking away opportunities for youth is a lousy idea, but OTOH, if less of this BS is the result of taking away easy youth opportunities...so be it.

If it were me, I'd take away the youth hunt, and I'd make sure every TV station, every newspaper, and every radio station knew exactly why. I'd print why the youth cow elk hunt was taken away on the cover of every regulation booklet, post it on the home page of the MTFWP website, and have it printed on posters in every sporting goods store in Montana. There'd be no "wondering" why the cow hunt is gone. Let that sit for a few years and try again. Same results, you're done for 10 years with youth hunts.

The culture would change is my guess.

Whats your solution?

 

[HSi-ESi]

BuzzH - I love the quote on money and elk. Very true.

First off, the Sula Basin incident sounds much like the old Deckard Flats situations - only this involved kids. I don't think that smacking people with fines is going to prevent this from happening again (didn't it happen down there within the last 5 years, only without the youth involvement?)

There is/was a strong 'party' hunting mentality from the older generations. I know stories from my Dad where deer/elk were shot and then a tag was found. The meat was never wasted (ie it went to needy families or elderly folks that didn't have the means to hunt). So there is a cultural acceptance to this. I think shooting a elk/deer and then putting my kids tag on it is utterly despicable.

I hate to see the youth cow hunts go away. My opinion would be a strong media campaign coupled by a loss of the youth cow hunt. I don't think that just eliminating the hunt is enough though - it's still going to be present in how these hunters are 'educated'.

I could pretty much guarantee that if the Deckard Flat 'hunts' were resumed, that this kind of ass-baggery would show up again.

 

[Sytes]

Personally, I think the youth hunt opportunities are valuable for the youngsters entering the hunt scene. I do not see how this incident of bad apples should result in chopping down the whole tree. I don't claim to understand the backroom "political" shuffle for youth hunts though I sure know the enjoyment involved in taking the young ones out hunting without the entire hunt population out there. I really believe the experience shared by the many outweighs the few who abuse this opportunity.

 

[RobG]

From what you and others describe of local hunters, the end result would have been the same if it was adult only. Don't Montana sportsmen police their ranks? Taking opportunity away from junior hunters sounds like a lousy idea to me.

When it comes to the adults the out of state people were just as bad if not worse than the residents during the last big cow-a-bunga (I like that name) in 2010. Elk are hard to get and when weather conditions cause them to become easy game there will always be a group of people who take advantage of the situation.

As far as I can tell the either sex elk "youth hunt" (not to be confused with the 2 day pre-season youth hunt) is limited and regulated by district. It seems like the commissioners could close it down (like they used to do with Deckard's Flats) or it could be made only for the first few weeks, etc. When I grew up here there wasn't any special hunts for youth at all and somehow we still got fired up about it so I'm not sure youth need any more "opportunity" to keep them interested.

 

[cur dog]

Personally, I think the youth hunt opportunities are valuable for the youngsters entering the hunt scene. I do not see how this incident of bad apples should result in chopping down the whole tree. I don't claim to understand the backroom "political" shuffle for youth hunts though I sure know the enjoyment involved in taking the young ones out hunting without the entire hunt population out there. I really believe the experience shared by the many outweighs the few who abuse this opportunity.

I couldn't agree more.