School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[805Bowhunter]

I teach high school on the Central Coast of California. I am a father and husband. I am a hunter. I am also a gun owner. I have a lot of thoughts regarding these shootings on so many levels but also have very few answers to any of it. It is so complex and scary. Culturally, I have no idea how to solve the problem. There are things that I believe can be done that others have said in this thread already that I agree with regarding limitations. I also understand that is a very slippery slope and I understand (especially being a Californian) the gravity of this. Im not sure if you all are familiar with Andy Stumpf, former Navy Seal. He has a podcast called "Cleared Hot" which is tremendous. In a somewhat recent episode, he talks about the Las Vegas shooting/gun control/violence etc and I strongly agree with what he said. Too much to repeat in type but as a special ops individual, he articulates important points very well and should be heard.

Secondly, as a teacher in a public school setting, of which I have been for 12 years now (I'm 35 and started young) I do have some thoughts. I can tell you first hand that the last thing I would ever want is to be carrying a gun in my classroom. Not because I am uncomfortable carrying, but it greatly changes the dynamic of a classroom in my opinion, and not for the better. Think about what those proposing this are asking? Would you feel more "comfortable" with you kid at school if you knew their teacher was carrying? As a teacher, putting guns in schools terrifies me. I have a one and three year old son and daughter. I can tell you first hand that there are many teachers around the country right now who feel like sitting ducks. They are extremely paranoid and honestly look at their students as potential violent criminals. This is having a massive impact on the way that teachers are even educating their students. Now imagine a relatively untrained teacher, whom is extremely paranoid about anybody that opens the door, with a gun in the classroom that your child is in. I can tell you about multiple teachers on my own campus whom I would barely get in a car with let alone trust them with a firearm at school. In my opinion, this takes an already large fire and adds truckloads of gasoline to it.

Additionally, schools are constantly on the defensive. As someone said earlier in this thread, sorry for forgetting who it is, schools are like airplanes before 9/11. Schools are constantly adapting to something that has happened. For example, there were several school shootings where the shooter came through a back entrance. Now all schools have to have a single point of entry in the front. There are endless examples of adaptations schools are making to try and prevent this from happening, however, if a freak really wants to sneak a gun on campus, they can. I dont see any way to stop this. Are we really going to start treating our schools like prisons? These are our kids remember, not convicted felons. What kind of environment do you want your kids to be educated in?

This problem is extremely complex and I have a lot more I could write but am just drained. Let me know if you have any thoughts specific to schools and I will try to answer. Im proud as always to be an American, but we have to stop shooting each other for no apparent reason.

 

[fwagner]

The whole, "we have lost God in our country" or "video games" is the problem is straight nonsense. I don't believe in ghosts, magical ships that save the world, or humans riding in the belly of a whale, and I grew up playing violent video games too, but I know life is sacred, I know how to treat my fellow man. Many atrocities have been committed in the act of pleasing many a god.

 

[cgarner]

The whole, "we have lost God in our country" or "video games" is the problem is straight nonsense. I don't believe in ghosts, magical ships that save the world, or humans riding in the belly of a whale, and I grew up playing violent video games too, but I know life is sacred, I know how to treat my fellow man. Many atrocities have been committed in the act of pleasing many a god.

It can still be part of the problem if it only affects 1% of the population. I grew up playing video games and don't prescribe to any specific religion, but I know people aren't the same and process inputs differently. I don't think anyone can argue that generally, peoples morals and the way behave has changed. I guess one could argue if that is bad or good.

 

[VikingsGuy]

This is very sad, and certainly worthy of both discussion and mourning. It is interesting, however, how our attention races to these shocking events. Here are some quick statistics that cause me to wonder why school shootings get so much attention.

Annual Death Per Year, non-disease

2017 School Shooting Deaths - 16
2014 Auto Accident Deaths - 34,000
2014 Teenage Driving Deaths - 2,800
2014 Suicides - 43,000
2014 Poisonings (unintentional) - 42,000
2000 Tobacco related - 435,000
2000 Alcohol Abuse - 80,000
2000 STDs - 20,000
2016 Drug Overdoses - 64,000
2016 Abortions - 645,000

As horrible as this is for the effected families, broader society's fascination with this topic seems out of touch with the data. Getting 50 depressed teenagers access to counseling and medications would save three times the number of teens lost yesterday. I think the what to solve list should focus more on the actual data and less on the news cycle.

 

[onpoint]

I solicited a couple of qualified responses to the idea of trained-teachers (staff)-with-guns idea. I have LEO's in my life on a daily basis in various capacities - no I am not a habitual offender nor currently in a detention center. I asked two of them, today, about their views regarding this topic. One a Capt. and one a Sargeant in their separate and respective agencies. Both were less than enthused about the idea of another poorly trained, stressed, and armed individual in this equation. One stated that he is actually less than adequately trained for these situations and questioned how a minimally trained/prepared civilian can be anything more than an additive problem in an already bad situation.
Won't pretend to speak for the enforcement community whatsoever - this is just info relayed via a personal comm. with two with whom I know.
I tend to be of the mind that they probably know what they are talking about........

 

[cgarner]

This is very sad, and certainly worthy of both discussion and mourning. It is interesting, however, how our attention races to these shocking events. Here are some quick statistics that cause me to wonder why school shootings get so much attention.

Annual Death Per Year, non-disease

2017 School Shooting Deaths - 16
2014 Auto Accident Deaths - 34,000
2014 Teenage Driving Deaths - 2,800
2014 Suicides - 43,000
2014 Poisonings (unintentional) - 42,000
2000 Tobacco related - 435,000
2000 Alcohol Abuse - 80,000
2000 STDs - 20,000
2016 Drug Overdoses - 64,000
2016 Abortions - 645,000

As horrible as this is for the effected families, broader society's fascination with this topic seems out of touch with the data. Getting 50 depressed teenagers access to counseling and medications would save three times the number of teens lost yesterday. I think the what to solve list should focus more on the actual data and less on the news cycle.

Interesting stats. I think part of it is that the news stations sensationalizes school shootings for ratings. They are truly horrific and kids at school are one of the most if not the most defenseless victims and that drives a lot emotions. It does in me at least. I think some of the other causes of death like, suicides, tobacco related , alcohol abuse, STDs, and Drug overdose are viewed as the person doing did it to themselves so there isn't as much compassion. That and it doesn't make for high rating news shows.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Does anyone here honestly think our country is a BETTER place to raise a family because almost anyone with a pulse can buy an AR style rifle with as many 30 round magazines as they want?

I think I see where you are going with this sarcasm, but no not anyone with a pulse. There are plenty of existing laws in the country restricting the purchase of firearms and mag capacity. Those laws generally do not stop a determined criminal

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This is very sad, and certainly worthy of both discussion and mourning. It is interesting, however, how our attention races to these shocking events. Here are some quick statistics that cause me to wonder why school shootings get so much attention.

Annual Death Per Year, non-disease
2014 Auto Accident Deaths - 34,000

We have at least been successful at reducing Auto deaths, definitely still an issue... but we are doing something...


Slightly different measure on the y axis, but this one shows when certain laws were implemented.

 

[Lawnboy]

This is very sad, and certainly worthy of both discussion and mourning. It is interesting, however, how our attention races to these shocking events. Here are some quick statistics that cause me to wonder why school shootings get so much attention.

Annual Death Per Year, non-disease

2017 School Shooting Deaths - 16
2014 Auto Accident Deaths - 34,000
2014 Teenage Driving Deaths - 2,800
2014 Suicides - 43,000
2014 Poisonings (unintentional) - 42,000
2000 Tobacco related - 435,000
2000 Alcohol Abuse - 80,000
2000 STDs - 20,000
2016 Drug Overdoses - 64,000
2016 Abortions - 645,000

As horrible as this is for the effected families, broader society's fascination with this topic seems out of touch with the data. Getting 50 depressed teenagers access to counseling and medications would save three times the number of teens lost yesterday. I think the what to solve list should focus more on the actual data and less on the news cycle.

I guess maybe what I see is that in school shootings the victims made no wrong choices and were affected by someone else choice. Most of the others on the list are self induced. Just a thought

 

[BucksnDucks]

Which of these shootings was done with an illegally acquired gun ... and GO!

Columbine, San Bernadino, Tehama County, Sandy Hook, all or most of mass shooting in Europe are the first to come to mind. I believe in most instances the shooter breaks several laws before actually pulling the trigger.

 

[npaden]

Those firearms deaths in your graph include suicides, but even on your graph the trend is downward since 1990. Very different than you would think from the press. I very much doubt that suicides would drop significantly simply by removing access to firearms. Firearm Homicides are down almost 50% since 1990.

Where is the big jump in the graph on auto deaths when the 55 mph national speed limit was revoked? What about the big jump when everyone started texting and driving?

What hits the press doesn't always really match up to facts.

 

[BuzzH]

I guess maybe what I see is that in school shootings the victims made no wrong choices and were affected by someone else choice. Most of the others on the list are self induced. Just a thought

Yes, akin to a plane crash.

The fact is that a tiny portion of the population die from school shootings or plane crashes, its the IDEA that it could be you, your family, or your friend that it happens to, that causes the angst. Also, that you largely have no control of it. People don't like not having control, and why knee-jerk reactions to find a simple solution come out at times like this.

Bottom line, planes are going to continue to crash, mass shootings are going to continue to happen, wars are going to continue to happen....etc. etc. etc.

Buckle up...its only going to get more bumpy.

 

[RobG]

I guess maybe what I see is that in school shootings the victims made no wrong choices and were affected by someone else choice. Most of the others on the list are self induced. Just a thought

The impacts also go far beyond the people who were killed. And glaring at most people is the very questionable claim that these types of weapons need to be so easy to obtain.

 

[Nameless Range]

I don't think we can just write this off as a freedom issue.

There are places that by reasonable metrics, are more free than us, and they don't deal with this stuff at even close to the same rate. For what ever reason, Americans equate freedom with the right to own guns you cannot in other places. Right or wrong.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Yes, akin to a plane crash.

The fact is that a tiny portion of the population die from school shootings or plane crashes, its the IDEA that it could be you, your family, or your friend that it happens to, that causes the angst. Also, that you largely have no control of it. People don't like not having control, and why knee-jerk reactions to find a simple solution come out at times like this.

Bottom line, planes are going to continue to crash, mass shootings are going to continue to happen, wars are going to continue to happen....etc. etc. etc.

Buckle up...its only going to get more bumpy.

I agree completely with your comment, but for me, concern that one of my kids might suffer from clinical depression, get killed driving or makes a few bad choices and pulls a Len Bias keeps me up far more nights than worrying about gun violence in school.

 

[LuketheDog]

I think I see where you are going with this sarcasm, but no not anyone with a pulse. There are plenty of existing laws in the country restricting the purchase of firearms and mag capacity. Those laws generally do not stop a determined criminal

NO law will ever stop a determined criminal with half a brain. Also, recall that no firearms, bombs, or illegal weapons were used by a few determined criminals in the greatest terrorist attack in our nation's history.

 

[TexAg09]

This is a correct statement, freedom doesn't just include freedom to do good but the freedom to do bad. First off, if anyone on this thread thinks that ONE aspect of this multi-layered problem is the "root cause" they are a fool and not worth your time reading their comments. Guns aren't the only problem but its obviously part of it, mental health isn't the only problem but it's part of it, the breakdown of society isn't the only problem but it's part of it. This problem needs to be addressed from several different angles, and yes that includes gun reform laws. Because I think it is matters in these discussions i'll tell you where I stand politically. I'm very left leaning socially, fiscally in the middle or slightly right and I'm a gun owner. I have fired many LAR's, favorite being Rock River Arms LAR .223 Fred Eichler edition. I don't think banning guns is the way to go, even if they did it, banning would cause more problems then solutions in my opinion. I think we need to expand the list of things a person can do that would not allow them to ever purchase a gun. For example....

Things that would eliminate you from ever owning any firearm:
1. Being expelled from a school
2. Being dishonorably discharged from the military
3. More than 2 OUI/DUI's
4. ANY assault charge....I don't care if you got drunk in a bar and got in a fight, grow the f up
5. Any poaching violation
6. Any theft conviction
7. More then 2 violations resulting in jail time
.......

I was almost expelled from school the last week of my senior year because we used roundup to write our class year in the school grass and on the 50 yard line of the practice football field. We thought it was a good senior prank because the grass would grow back, but our superintendent didn't see it that way. Needless to say you should probably keep it to law related convictions. At least in my opinion.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

I find the lack od give a shit by some on here to be appalling. Maybe you don't have kids, maybe you are so far removed from it that it seems like a story. Not sure but I do know this, the same apathetic attitude expressed by some is the same attitude the gunmen who do this have. I truly think that is what is so offensive to john q. public. It that same attitude that will end up with Uncle Sugar doing away with the second amendment all together. It was a 5-4 vote the last time it was questioned and even then the court ruled that regulation was legal within the context of the law. Gun taxes, mental health exams, purchase limits.........they're coming unless gun owners can figure out how to better handle this. I refrain from using the term fix.

 

[805Bowhunter]

This is very sad, and certainly worthy of both discussion and mourning. It is interesting, however, how our attention races to these shocking events. Here are some quick statistics that cause me to wonder why school shootings get so much attention.

Annual Death Per Year, non-disease

2017 School Shooting Deaths - 16
2014 Auto Accident Deaths - 34,000
2014 Teenage Driving Deaths - 2,800
2014 Suicides - 43,000
2014 Poisonings (unintentional) - 42,000
2000 Tobacco related - 435,000
2000 Alcohol Abuse - 80,000
2000 STDs - 20,000
2016 Drug Overdoses - 64,000
2016 Abortions - 645,000

As horrible as this is for the effected families, broader society's fascination with this topic seems out of touch with the data. Getting 50 depressed teenagers access to counseling and medications would save three times the number of teens lost yesterday. I think the what to solve list should focus more on the actual data and less on the news cycle.

While I cannot speak to the validity of these statistics, I definitely see your point. In high schools specifically, depression/prescription med abuse is rampant and the amount of services related to mental health are cut tremendously. When I first started, in 2006, our school had six counselors which were used significantly. Now we have one full time counselor and one part time counselor. They are doing complete damage control and can rarely see students, even in crisis, because there is such a long wait. This is an affluent district as well. This trend is nationwide and these mental health services are getting chopped year after year and we keep asking why the hell it is happening. We wonder why kids are freaking out but never really ask why. Even in mental health cases, a lot of these shootings the student/kid was never given access to mental health services. Its not an expensive service to fund. And, removing these services is only going to exacerbate the issue.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

While I cannot speak to the validity of these statistics, I definitely see your point. In high schools specifically, depression/prescription med abuse is rampant and the amount of services related to mental health are cut tremendously. When I first started, in 2006, our school had six counselors which were used significantly. Now we have one full time counselor and one part time counselor. They are doing complete damage control and can rarely see students, even in crisis, because there is such a long wait. This is an affluent district as well. This trend is nationwide and these mental health services are getting chopped year after year and we keep asking why the hell it is happening. We wonder why kids are freaking out but never really ask why. Even in mental health cases, a lot of these shootings the student/kid was never given access to mental health services. Its not an expensive service to fund. And, removing these services is only going to exacerbate the issue.

Thats a really interesting thought.