Montana Elk Management Survey Results

Great conversations from some very knowledgeable people.

So I'll add my perceptions (real or otherwise).

Yes, in Western Montana (my main stomping grounds) Elk were fewer back in the 70's and 80's. The lands we hunted were mainly public as there were very few Elk on private other than some large ranches that were protected. People would congregate around those sanctuary area's and catch a few Elk moving over to public. Mostly we hunted the vast roadless, multiple use areas of the forest around here.

Day hunting was the norm for us as you could drive within an hour of home and be in great ELk hunting. Hell many hunters didn't even have 4 wheel drive then. So when snow depths got deep you have zero competition if you were lucky enough to own a good vehicle or hunted with someone that did.

By and large the best Elk hunting was in the Western 1/3 of the state with a good chance at mature bulls.

So lets fast forward to today and see what's changed.

First off, there are a bunch more hunters than then, we can all agree that's a reality. Non resident hunters were 11,500 in total numbers and purchased combo tags. I think I saw where there are around 78,000 NR hunters today. Many are specializing on certain things and don't have the combo tags anymore. To be fair that's total Big Game hunters.

There was great mule deer hunting in Western Montana, but the really sick deer hunting was in the East.

Same people that took the Elk survey would also tell you that Deer management is Ok and they like their opportunity although there's no question as to how far the deer hunting has slipped.

So back to what's changed for ELk hunting:

So through the 80's and 90's things still climbed as far as quality and numbers of Elk. If I remember right, we held bull to cow ratio numbers above 25/100 post seasons back then with about the same Elk herd we have today in a portion of the areas I hunted. Now we are at 15/100. Cow hunting had gotten regulated and controlled, and was raising the populations. With the new EMP coming out the "Managers" will maximize Bull Elk harvests and keep them from falling to 10/100. I'll just leave that there.

At that time there was a huge push by land agency's to get the remote lands roaded before they were included in the RARE II Wilderness lands designations. Those great multiple use areas I hunted ended up with roads through the heart of them. Big Bulls and roads just don't mix. One spot in particular was flown one year in winter and the bio counted a group of 70 bulls hanging together. All but 3 of them were 6 points or better. The area was a winter range for bulls but roadless and steep, but they could winter in their unmolested. The next year it was roaded and logged, (looked like a nuclear bomb went off. The next years flight count was 3 bulls total. Access and lack of cover made them easy targets.

During the 90's 3 things changed that have had a huge impact (IMO). The first was the 4 wheeler quad ATV showed up, another was the Grey Wolf, and the third thing, (biggest) was Elk were considered vermin. Many things have changed, but those 3 are what I considered the biggest.

So there was a push by the department to start killing elk and the words "Elk Objectives" started getting tossed around. Elk started congregating in places that were quit compared to public lands.

During the 2000's this push to kill Elk was quite effective on public land elk populations. Some of those areas haven't come back as of today for various reasons.

Massive forest fires covering a lot of acreage also added in to the mix. Grass was in great supplies, but we were still killing off Elk on public lands because of social concerns. Elk were just considered vermin by some and competing with the sacred cow. Much of the public forest regions in the Western 1/3 have been burnt, and successive fires needed to clean out the downfall are being suppressed because people complain about smoke. IMO we need the fires to continue especially in those areas. The second or third successive burn are more important for restoring the forest to what's natural. I'm not a expert by at all, just telling you what I see.

So Big Bulls are very vulnerable now compared to days gone by because the cover is gone. People can and do shoot 1000 yards at them and many are quite good at that long range stuff. More are going to that type of thing to compete. ATV trails have been built to address the recreational users that enjoy their side by sides, were none existed a decade ago.

In places like the Big Hole Valley, Elk numbers were pissing off the ranchers as they do compete for feed with cattle. The complaining was heard by the department and they liberalized the hunting there. Now there's a 1/3 the Elk there was and I hear from some of those landowners that (although they don't want Elk on their ranch lands) They think there's not enough bulls around anymore. So there's that. The petal is still to the metal, as far as management goes in that region and there's still a high amount of kill taking place on those bulls. By what I've seen the old bulls numbers are few and far between. With the new EMP's emphasis on maximizing bull elk harvests, I see no improvement for years to come. Geewhiz had better get ready for his honey hole being invaded, there will be few rocks that don't get overturned by hunters these days. All things change, trust me.

The forest has shrunk a bunch, overall we have less older class bulls, more hunters that are better equipped, and hunt hunt longer and harder. Many people subscribe to the DIY public lands backcountry remote hunting now and are getting farther in than ever before. You can watch video's on how to fast forward to be a great Elk hunter on Youtube.

I don't have answers, but this I know. The hunting in Montana is far worse today, than it was by a long stretch, back in the 70's and 80's even though we have more Elk living in the state.
There's great Elk and deer hunting still to be had, (small and disappearing) but my Grandchildren will never have even a small portion of what I have had.

Trust me on that.
 
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Well said Shoots.....my W MT take is similiar. Public land management is important to elk mgmt but important elements of the new EMP emphasis on Habitat is largely unachievable in the short term. Most W MT forested elk habitat needs more fire. I recently saw where the Bitterroot was using a 20 yr old burn as a place to stop a new fire. That 20 yr old burn is 6 ft high downfall jungle that is inpenetrable for even elk....it needs to burn again to make it usable for elk but that ain't happening in todays world. Agencies are still stomping out virtually all fires in this fire dependent ecosystem. That ain't changing soon. Prescribed fire constraints like short burning windows, manpower, smoke and risk will keep that tool largely too small to make much difference. The comparison photos of 100 years ago and now show that the forest is much more extensive and closed in than before. The exensive LPP beetle kill (without fire) has made previous elk habitat far less desirable to elk with heavy downfall dominating in many landscapes.

The public land agencies are incapable of stopping new motorized access, let alone reducing it. Gates are ineffective. Agencies could recontour road prisms but wont. ATVs have been legitimized on previously non motorized trails. User created ATV trails are now being legitimized. Add in ebikes. Add in extention of mountain bikes onto trails and "closed" roads. The remaining "secure" areas have shrunk into tiny pockets of steep rocky terrain that elk use when pushed but don't stay in for long.

Its easy for FWP to push responsibility for elk to other agencies (habitat) to avoid much harder FWP decisions. Reducing or limiting seasons or more regulations is much harder for fWP and will be avoided. Besides being more politically difficult, it could affect FWP's bottom line. Substitute "Revenue" whenever FWP uses "opportuntity" and see if that doesn't fit. Gotta keep selling tags. FWP has boxed themselves into an expensive fixed cost budget. They have added a ton of personnel while not much different happens on the ground. If the decisions are to be made on political whims and comfort levels, why have so many biologists?
 
Ya that sounds good. Bottom line is, if the hunting was good we wouldn’t be having these conversations. On the herd Management conversation, it could be argued that a good portion of Montana is fine. The herds are healthy in many parts of the start…just not on public land. So maybe we just need adjustments in the heavily public land units? I mean if it’s truly about whole herds, how can we say places like 411 need change?

Hunting is the primary management tool of the agency. That's why the hunting aspect is taking up so much bandwidth. If we don't have a variety of options to use based on actual herd dynamics, then we're just doing what we did under the old plan w/ three options and a hard number for an objective. If hunting isn't achieving the goals of elk management, then the hunting structure has to be modified to help correct that.

Herd health doesn't take into account the other leg of the science stool - social science. Chris Smith, former FWP deputy director and now with Wildlife Mgt Inst, often said that the social science part of wildlife management is one of the most critical. Elk, deer, etc do just fine without humanity, and human management prescriptions. it's the social construct that demands management.

I do think that "fine" is a relative term and if we are honest with ourselves, even the trophy districts aren't "fine" if we layer the concerns of other stakeholders relative to elk distribution, bull/cow ratios, cow/calf ratios in some districts, etc. This conversation has been going on since at least the 1980's from the landowner side, and their frustration grows each year to where we have the birth of the anti-public wildlife faction of the MT Legislature (which seems to be shrinking a bit).

Every unit is different, no one change will effect it all. Each stakeholder has issues that don't get covered by hunting alone, and each hunter wants wildly different things.

Adjustments on public land are critical, just as landowner-to-landowner pressure is going to be critical for moving elk off of refugia and back on to public where they are welcomed.
 
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Agree, just wonder what could be incorporated in the EMP to make elk move from private to public while maintaining opportunity.
I think making alot of B-tags private land only would help. All these public land B tags are just creating more and more pressure. Pressure moves those elk to sanctuary, at least temporarily. I think in the name of budget you could retain or increase the # of NR B tag hunters and just shift those tags to private. Win/Win
 
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This article seemed like a good, quick break down of the survey. I still can't help but feel like this will be used to push more opportunity at the expense of wildlife. I guess I can't wrap my head around people being okay with big swaths of public land that used to hold good numbers of elk, being devoid of elk today in the name of keeping the same opportunity. Last year I finally found a spot that was somewhat decent and it reminded me of the good elk hunting I got to see when I was younger. We easily got into elk each time we went out to the area but I can't help but wonder how fast even that place will go downhill with some of the proposed changes that could expand cow hunting and even open up spike hunting. A lot has changed and I think it's important to keep up with that change with more creative ideas.
 

This article seemed like a good, quick break down of the survey. I still can't help but feel like this will be used to push more opportunity at the expense of wildlife. I guess I can't wrap my head around people being okay with big swaths of public land that used to hold good numbers of elk, being devoid of elk today in the name of keeping the same opportunity. Last year I finally found a spot that was somewhat decent and it reminded me of the good elk hunting I got to see when I was younger. We easily got into elk each time we went out to the area but I can't help but wonder how fast even that place will go downhill with some of the proposed changes that could expand cow hunting and even open up spike hunting. A lot has changed and I think it's important to keep up with that change with more creative ideas.
"In an email, the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association hailed the findings."

“These results should inform public discussions and the elk management policies of the (Fish and Wildlife) Commission going forward,” said Mac Minard, executive director of MOGA. “Montana hunters made it clear that they do not support additional regulations or loss of opportunities and underscored a need to increase hunting on private lands in order to disperse elk to public lands.”

Sounds like we can't rely on MOGA to advocate for any change. @Eric Albus @Big Shooter
 
I think it is also fine to recognize that this just a poll, a tool with questionable and nuanced metric reliability - sent to a subset of Montana hunters, a subset of which responded.

How polls configure their questions is incredibly meaningful. I can't find a copy of the survey itself, but the report FWP released makes me think it was limited. I can imagine a question like, "Do you think there are too many nonresident hunters in Montana?" getting a hell of a lot higher response in the affirmative than the 73% that think Elk hunting is satisfactory. I don't think that question was asked, and if it were, the narrative around this whole thing would be different.

That's just one example, but this survey ain't the authority on elk in Montana.
 
Thomas Baumeister, former longtime FWP employee, has something to say about how FWP fudges these numbers after looking at the full survey results, not just the summary FWP shared:

"It appears FWP is taking the liberty to count the neutral responses in the “satisfied” category, something we flagged for them upon review and were told via email that “folks can interpret the results in their own way.” We find their answer unsatisfactory, perhaps troubling.

Following FWP’s logic, we could just as easily count those neutral responses as being dissatisfied, meaning that 65.1% of Montana are dissatisfied. This would give us a valid reason to be alarmed as FWP is required, among other things, to manage for hunter satisfaction."

Full article here, worth a read:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/are_montanans_really_satisfied_with_elk_management
 
Wow. I’m kind of surprised at such naked disingenuousness.


Satisfied (adjective): pleased or content with what has been experienced or received

Neutral (adjective):not decided;indifferent


FWP is obviously not married and understanding that “Fine” doesn’t mean everything is wonderful and she’s happy with you…😏
 
Thomas Baumeister, former longtime FWP employee, has something to say about how FWP fudges these numbers after looking at the full survey results, not just the summary FWP shared:

"It appears FWP is taking the liberty to count the neutral responses in the “satisfied” category, something we flagged for them upon review and were told via email that “folks can interpret the results in their own way.” We find their answer unsatisfactory, perhaps troubling.

Following FWP’s logic, we could just as easily count those neutral responses as being dissatisfied, meaning that 65.1% of Montana are dissatisfied. This would give us a valid reason to be alarmed as FWP is required, among other things, to manage for hunter satisfaction."

Full article here, worth a read:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/are_montanans_really_satisfied_with_elk_management
I think the same can be said for their game check stations. It’s getting to be so obvious even the dimmest of bulbs can see it. I stole that from buzz. Eastern Montana can see it not sure about western Montana.
 
Great conversations from some very knowledgeable people.

So I'll add my perceptions (real or otherwise).

Yes, in Western Montana (my main stomping grounds) Elk were fewer back in the 70's and 80's. The lands we hunted were mainly public as there were very few Elk on private other than some large ranches that were protected. People would congregate around those sanctuary area's and catch a few Elk moving over to public. Mostly we hunted the vast roadless, multiple use areas of the forest around here.

Day hunting was the norm for us as you could drive within an hour of home and be in great ELk hunting. Hell many hunters didn't even have 4 wheel drive then. So when snow depths got deep you have zero competition if you were lucky enough to own a good vehicle or hunted with someone that did.

By and large the best Elk hunting was in the Western 1/3 of the state with a good chance at mature bulls.

So lets fast forward to today and see what's changed.

First off, there are a bunch more hunters than then, we can all agree that's a reality. Non resident hunters were 11,500 in total numbers and purchased combo tags. I think I saw where there are around 78,000 NR hunters today. Many are specializing on certain things and don't have the combo tags anymore. To be fair that's total Big Game hunters.

There was great mule deer hunting in Western Montana, but the really sick deer hunting was in the East.

Same people that took the Elk survey would also tell you that Deer management is Ok and they like their opportunity although there's no question as to how far the deer hunting has slipped.

So back to what's changed for ELk hunting:

So through the 80's and 90's things still climbed as far as quality and numbers of Elk. If I remember right, we held bull to cow ratio numbers above 25/100 post seasons back then with about the same Elk herd we have today in a portion of the areas I hunted. Now we are at 15/100. Cow hunting had gotten regulated and controlled, and was raising the populations. With the new EMP coming out the "Managers" will maximize Bull Elk harvests and keep them from falling to 10/100. I'll just leave that there.

At that time there was a huge push by land agency's to get the remote lands roaded before they were included in the RARE II Wilderness lands designations. Those great multiple use areas I hunted ended up with roads through the heart of them. Big Bulls and roads just don't mix. One spot in particular was flown one year in winter and the bio counted a group of 70 bulls hanging together. All but 3 of them were 6 points or better. The area was a winter range for bulls but roadless and steep, but they could winter in their unmolested. The next year it was roaded and logged, (looked like a nuclear bomb went off. The next years flight count was 3 bulls total. Access and lack of cover made them easy targets.

During the 90's 3 things changed that have had a huge impact (IMO). The first was the 4 wheeler quad ATV showed up, another was the Grey Wolf, and the third thing, (biggest) was Elk were considered vermin. Many things have changed, but those 3 are what I considered the biggest.

So there was a push by the department to start killing elk and the words "Elk Objectives" started getting tossed around. Elk started congregating in places that were quit compared to public lands.

During the 2000's this push to kill Elk was quite effective on public land elk populations. Some of those areas haven't come back as of today for various reasons.

Massive forest fires covering a lot of acreage also added in to the mix. Grass was in great supplies, but we were still killing off Elk on public lands because of social concerns. Elk were just considered vermin by some and competing with the sacred cow. Much of the public forest regions in the Western 1/3 have been burnt, and successive fires needed to clean out the downfall are being suppressed because people complain about smoke. IMO we need the fires to continue especially in those areas. The second or third successive burn are more important for restoring the forest to what's natural. I'm not a expert by at all, just telling you what I see.

So Big Bulls are very vulnerable now compared to days gone by because the cover is gone. People can and do shoot 1000 yards at them and many are quite good at that long range stuff. More are going to that type of thing to compete. ATV trails have been built to address the recreational users that enjoy their side by sides, were none existed a decade ago.

In places like the Big Hole Valley, Elk numbers were pissing off the ranchers as they do compete for feed with cattle. The complaining was heard by the department and they liberalized the hunting there. Now there's a 1/3 the Elk there was and I hear from some of those landowners that (although they don't want Elk on their ranch lands) They think there's not enough bulls around anymore. So there's that. The petal is still to the metal, as far as management goes in that region and there's still a high amount of kill taking place on those bulls. By what I've seen the old bulls numbers are few and far between. With the new EMP's emphasis on maximizing bull elk harvests, I see no improvement for years to come. Geewhiz had better get ready for his honey hole being invaded, there will be few rocks that don't get overturned by hunters these days. All things change, trust me.

The forest has shrunk a bunch, overall we have less older class bulls, more hunters that are better equipped, and hunt hunt longer and harder. Many people subscribe to the DIY public lands backcountry remote hunting now and are getting farther in than ever before. You can watch video's on how to fast forward to be a great Elk hunter on Youtube.

I don't have answers, but this I know. The hunting in Montana is far worse today, than it was by a long stretch, back in the 70's and 80's even though we have more Elk living in the state.
There's great Elk and deer hunting still to be had, (small and disappearing) but my Grandchildren will never have even a small portion of what I have had.

Trust me on that.
There’s 78k NR tags . How many hunters ? Some have 7 tags
 
Thomas Baumeister, former longtime FWP employee, has something to say about how FWP fudges these numbers after looking at the full survey results, not just the summary FWP shared:

"It appears FWP is taking the liberty to count the neutral responses in the “satisfied” category, something we flagged for them upon review and were told via email that “folks can interpret the results in their own way.” We find their answer unsatisfactory, perhaps troubling.

Following FWP’s logic, we could just as easily count those neutral responses as being dissatisfied, meaning that 65.1% of Montana are dissatisfied. This would give us a valid reason to be alarmed as FWP is required, among other things, to manage for hunter satisfaction."

Full article here, worth a read:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/are_montanans_really_satisfied_with_elk_management
Did BHA look to see if FWP counted the neutral responses as being “satisfied” for the mule deer survey results also?
 
Some hard-hitting journalism following up:

"FM3 Research is a national public-policy research company known particularly for conducting several respected public-land polls, including the Colorado College State of the Rockies Project and the University of Montana Crown of the Continent and Greater Yellowstone Initiative public lands polls.

When he was shown FWP’s poll and conclusions, FM3 President Dave Metz said FWP’s interpretation was 'to say the least, a highly unusual approach.'"

https://missoulacurrent.com/elk-hunter-survey/
 
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