Cue the Bambification of CO's wolves...

[LuketheDog]

Looks like those students should spend more time in a dictionary understanding what those words actually mean

Looks like the names came from the Colorado Wolf and Wildlife Center, down in Woodland Park, the same valedictorians who "lost" a wolf for a month a few years ago (I still think they did it on purpose). They have cabin rentals if you'd like to go for a tour...

 

[VikingsGuy]

We (MN) have, by multiples, the most wolves of the lower 48 and they just aren’t that big a deal. We got much bigger problems facing hunting, conservation and the nation.

edited to clarify MN

 

[Gus Chiggins]

We have, by multiples, the most wolves in the lower 48 and they just aren’t that big a deal. We got much bigger problems facing hunting, conservation and the nation.

Depends on where you are. In some areas, the introduction and proliferation, plus (intentional?) lack of adequate management, of large predators including but not limited to wolves, has a substantially detrimental effect on hunting.

 

[seeth07]

Depends on where you are. In some areas, the introduction and proliferation, plus (intentional?) lack of adequate management, of large predators including but not limited to wolves, has a substantially detrimental effect on hunting.

I think you need to look at Alaska for a case study of how large predators and prey can indeed live in a ratio that far exceeds what the lower 48 hunters would like to have. I just came back from Kodiak, AK on an island where the Griz population according to the biologist was HIGHER than the elk and deer population on that island. Yet I saw deer and elk every day in high numbers and hardly any Griz.

 

[TOGIE]

I think you need to look at Alaska for a case study of how large predators and prey can indeed live in a ratio that far exceeds what the lower 48 hunters would like to have. I just came back from Kodiak, AK on an island where the Griz population according to the biologist was HIGHER than the elk and deer population on that island. Yet I saw deer and elk every day in high numbers and hardly any Griz.

but on kodiak there aren't mule deer and elk that are already on the decline from a dozen other factors that don't have anything to do with predators or hunters.

 

[seeth07]

but on kodiak there aren't mule deer and elk that are already on the decline from a dozen other factors that don't have anything to do with predators or hunters.

That sort of proves my point that the focus shouldn't be on wolves existing but rather those "dozen other factors"

 

[Gus Chiggins]

That sort of proves my point that the focus shouldn't be on wolves existing but rather those "dozen other factors"

Other factors probably include living in a progressive state, like WA or OR. And ballot box biology in WA, OR or CO.

AK probably not a progressive state.

Here's how a lot of times these conversations go:

Hunter #1 (in a progressive state): My state's game management is in the toilet, and there's a lack of predator management, due in part to activist F&W commissioners or ballot box biology. Elk/deer numbers have materially decreased and over 20 years hunting quality has fallen off a cliff.

Hunter #2 (in a non-progressive state with a wolf season, seasons to hunt lions with hounds, etc.): Quit being a big cry baby. Hunters unite.

Hunter #1: Can I hunt in your state?

Hunter#2: If you show up at my trailhead I'll beat your a**.

Hunter#1: (Cries and keeps hunting in the progressive state, makes "pew pew" sounds at the spot where he got a big mulie 15 years prior, and where he used to get into elk herds. Watches wolves and mt lions on game camera. Keeps throwing money into elk/deer tag apps every spring, plus $$$ on the tag raffle he never wins. Then cries more because he's out of beer money.)

Just say "no" to Bambi on Bambi violence.

 

[VikingsGuy]

On our land in a valley in MN we had a period where deer were everywhere, small but everywhere. Danger to vehicles, made it near impossible to regrow pine forests, crap everywhere, ticks everywher, but easy hunting in deed and the kids liked to see them. Then a wolf pack moved in over the ridge. Cool trail cam “chase pics” and deer bones left here and there. Deer numbers plummeted for likely this and weather reasons. Tough deer hunting for a few years. The kids liked to see the wolves as much as they did the deer. Got some real good years under our belts regrowing some pine. And then the pack moved on. Deer starting on the way up again.

And we also live with the unexplained ruffed grouse 17 year cycles. Wonderful at the top, sucks at the bottom. Circle of life.

My family and I enjoy the whole ride, it just isn’t always about shooting an animal. We embrace conservation and hunting as part of conservation. We also enjoy hunting NR in states that decide to invite us, but if you don’t invite us we are ok with that. Life moves on.

 

[TOGIE]

On our land in a valley in MN we had a period where deer were everywhere, small but everywhere. Danger to vehicles, made it near impossible to regrow pine forests, crap everywhere, ticks everywher, but easy hunting in deed and the kids liked to see them. Then a wolf pack moved in over the ridge. Cool trail cam “chase pics” and deer bones left here and there. Deer numbers plummeted for likely this and weather reasons. Tough deer hunting for a few years. The kids liked to see the wolves as much as they did the deer. Got some real good years under our belts regrowing some pine. And then the pack moved on. Deer starting on the way up again.

And we also live with the unexplained ruffed grouse 17 year cycles. Wonderful at the top, sucks at the bottom. Circle of life.

My family and I enjoy the whole ride, it just isn’t always about shooting an animal. We embrace conservation and hunting as part of conservation. We also enjoy hunting NR in states that decide to invite us, but if you don’t invite us we are ok with that. Life moves on.

hard to compare mule deer already in constant decline to white tails, for starters.

out here i don't expect it to be much of a "ride." more of a constant and ever accelerating descent.

 

[VikingsGuy]

hard to compare mule deer already in constant decline to white tails, for starters.

out here i don't expect it to be much of a "ride." more of a constant descent.

Seems like it worked out for 40,000+ yrs, I am sure it will work out now - may not suit our 2025 hunting tag, but big picture the big bad wolf is over done. On the other hand, grizz and mountain lions are risks to humans I would prefer we keep in check.

 

[TOGIE]

Seems like it worked out for 40,000+ yrs, I am sure it will work out now - may not suit our 2025 hunting tag, but big picture the big bad wolf is over done. On the other hand, grizz and mountain lions are risks to humans I would prefer we keep in check.

it would work rather well if the mule deer winter range wasn't ever disappearing, if the migration corridors weren't constantly getting cut off, if habitat degradation wasn't a major factor.... the list is long.

you're making the mistake the that pro wolf advoates make - that there exists some sort of "natural balance" and that the wolves and ungulates live in some sort of vacuum like yellowstone where the imprints of man on their lives and ecosystems is minimal to negligible.

you also make the mistake in thinking that I have some sort of "big bad wolf" mentality.

simple facts are: in a world where the dominant decline of some of our favorite hunted species is due to the very presence of humanity itself, unmanaged predator populations are going to cause some pretty big problems in various ungulate herds where recruitment is already nearing all time lows without the presence of unmanaged predators.

 

[seeth07]

simple facts are: in a world where the dominant decline of some of our favorite hunted species is the very presence of humanity itself, unmanaged predator populations are going to cause some pretty big problems in various ungulate herds where recruitment is already nearing all time lows.

The simple fact is that if there are no deer, the wolves will move on and there won't be a predator population there anymore. Natural balance will allow deer to move back in. If they don't/can't due to other problems/issues, then focus on those rather than the fight over the wolves right to be back in the ecosystem it once dominated. Again back to the case study I pointed out people should really look at and consider - in places where there aren't the same human problems, there aren't predator/prey problems.

 

[WildWill]

Seems like it worked out for 40,000+ yrs, I am sure it will work out now - may not suit our 2025 hunting tag, but big picture the big bad wolf is over done. On the other hand, grizz and mountain lions are risks to humans I would prefer we keep in check.

It may have worked just fine before factoring in all the other factors humanity has thrown in the way. I do agree the big bad wolf mentality is over done but that dosen't mean releasing them.is a good idea especially when it was due to ballot box biology. Also confused on the mountain lion thing I would think a wolf and mountain lion would pose the same risk to humans ( very little).

 

[bayoublaster7527]

We (MN) have, by multiples, the most wolves of the lower 48 and they just aren’t that big a deal. We got much bigger problems facing hunting, conservation and the nation.

edited to clarify MN

Problems like potential hunting bans, Prop #91 and #101. Direct threats to the future of hunting in the state of Colorado.

Queue shameless plug from Coloradans for Responsible Wildlife Management!

Coloradans for Responsible Wildlife Management

We focus on the public’s interests for maintaining a century-old track record of our natural resources, including wildlife, habitat, and farms and ranches.

savethehuntcolorado.com

 

[WildWill]

The simple fact is that if there are no deer, the wolves will move on and there won't be a predator population there anymore. Natural balance will allow deer to move back in. If they don't/can't due to other problems/issues, then focus on those rather than the fight over the wolves right to be back in the ecosystem it once dominated. Again back to the case study I pointed out people should really look at and consider - in places where there aren't the same human problems, there aren't predator/prey problems.

But what does that have to do with a place like Colorado? They're not going to demolish Boulder or Colorado Springs every year there's more people and more conflict with wildlife. Why pour fuel on a fire especially when it's not being driven by science but the ballot box.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Other factors probably include living in a progressive state, like WA or OR. And ballot box biology in WA, OR or CO.

AK probably not a progressive state.

Here's how a lot of times these conversations go:

Hunter #1 (in a progressive state): My state's game management is in the toilet, and there's a lack of predator management, due in part to activist F&W commissioners or ballot box biology. Elk/deer numbers have materially decreased and over 20 years hunting quality has fallen off a cliff.

Hunter #2 (in a non-progressive state with a wolf season, seasons to hunt lions with hounds, etc.): Get being a big cry baby. Hunters unite.

Hunter #1: Can I hunt in your state?

Hunter#2: If you show up at my trailhead I'll beat your a**.

Hunter#1: (Cries and keeps hunting in the progressive state, makes "pew pew" sounds at the spot where he got a big mulie 15 years prior, and where he used to get into elk herds. Watches wolves and mt lions on game camera. Keeps throwing money into elk/deer tag apps every spring, plus $$$ on the tag raffle he never wins. Then cries more because he's out of beer money.)

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Just say "no" to Bambi on Bambi violence.

Amen! As a Coloradan, love everyone from AK and MT telling me how it is…. The city of Denver has a population on par with the entire state of Alaska and the Denver metro has populations 3x more than MT our land mass is a fraction of either of those states. On top of that we have a population that is more active than anywhere else in the lower 48, year round.

 

[TOGIE]

The simple fact is that if there are no deer, the wolves will move on and there won't be a predator population there anymore. Natural balance will allow deer to move back in. If they don't/can't due to other problems/issues, then focus on those rather than the fight over the wolves right to be back in the ecosystem it once dominated. Again back to the case study I pointed out people should really look at and consider - in places where there aren't the same human problems, there aren't predator/prey problems.

lol, you guys really think i'm some sort of anti wolf nut don't you?

kodiak really has no relevance to this discussion, because colorado is nothing like kodiak and it will never be, same with the back 40 in minnesota with whitetail deer on it.

you guys do realize "natural balance" is a discredited theory in ecosystem science right?

 

[seeth07]

But what does that have to do with a place like Colorado? They're not going to demolish Boulder or Colorado Springs every year there's more people and more conflict with wildlife. Why pour fuel on a fire especially when it's not being driven by science but the ballot box.

I totally I'm right with you that it was absolutely done the wrong way.

 

[seeth07]

lol, you guys really think i'm some sort of anti wolf nut don't you?

kodiak really has no relevance to this discussion, because colorado is nothing like kodiak and it will never be, same with the back 40 in minnesota with whitetail deer on it.

you guys do realize "natural balance" is a discredited theory in ecosystem science right?

So all of the credible research studies on the coyote/lynx-hare relationship is hogwash?

 

[seeth07]

Amen! As a Coloradan, love everyone from AK and MT telling me how it is…. The city of Denver has a population on par with the entire state of Alaska and the Denver metro has populations 3x more than MT our land mass is a fraction of either of those states. On top of that we have a population that is more active than anywhere else in the lower 48, year round.

So don't you think that is more of the problem with why the mule deer are struggling than 5 wolves being put on the landscape?