Colorado Buck Quality

[thusby]

I saw 43 does and a fork horn today n Colorado , does that count.

 

[Oak]

I'm not sure it's even debatable that moving the season closer to the rut and maintaining or increasing license numbers will increase the harvest rate of mature bucks. But you can't really look at the situation at the state level, as management (or mismanagement) decisions are made at the DAU level. I'll use @wllm's numbers as an example.

There is a lot more behind those 2015 and 2022 license numbers than just a "total quota." License numbers are based on post-season population and B ratio estimates, as well as the management plan. The unit used as an example above has had a new herd management plan written since 2015 (which resulted in a lower population objective), and CPW also changed the population model they were using. And post-season 2014 the B ratio was estimated at 27:100, while in 2021 it was 37:100 (objective 25-30 both years). And 110 of the 210 license increase occurred in 2022, likely in response to the B ratio.

As much as some of us don't like it (me included), the vast majority of CO is not managed for "trophy" deer hunting. It's managed for a population objective, a B ratio, and a CWD prevalence rate. Clearly the one that influences trophy quality the most is B ratio, and CPW has been making an effort to bring those ratios down where they are above objective (primarily b/c of CWD). The result is going to be fewer bucks and fewer mature bucks.

 

[Oak]

Oops, buck:doe ratios are very happy.

 

[Bluffgruff]

Absolutely yes.

But even though average buck size available is lower, nothing is really different because most people still shoot 1.5-3.5 year old bucks, just like they did before the later seasons. I think 180" deer are in every unit, during every season, every year.

Are you going to be looking at a bunch of these? Highly unlikely.

So focus on having a good hunt, and don't expect to see or kill instragram-worthy bucks every year.

 

[TOGIE]

despite everyones answers i'm still not voting because my answer is not in there.

i was never arguing that moving the season later won't change things, i did in fact suggest that it probably is the primary thing that ought to be re thought due to how much closer it's been shifted to peak rutting activity.

i was sensing, however, a sentiment in the montana thread that now "colorado is also hammering bucks with high powered rifles during the rut" when we're simply not, not yet at least. i admit, we are starting to toe the line a little. how severe the effects are of this later 3rd season early rut hunt are remains to be known.

i could vote "absolutely it will" based on the simple fact that a later season will indeed result in more bucks shot and i suspect we could start seeing age class and quality downgrades. but the caveat being that i can't sit here and say with any confidence that we're about to just destroy the age class and quality in all the units because of this. or maybe we will?

don't forget. colorado actually manages for objectives in DAUs and things are adjusted once they're met. maybe we see opportunity loss as a result of this?

no offense @rogerthat but i was sensing in the montana thread and with the starting of this thread a sentiment that colorado is now starting to go the scorched earth route of montana with a 3rd season hunt that starts to toe the line on early rut/rut, which i call full bullchit on. montana's been lapping us on that race for decades, and a shortened 7 day 3rd rifle hunt that lands us 1-2 weeks later and squarely in the early rut doesn't even land on the same planet in comparison.

 

[rogerthat]

despite everyones answers i'm still not voting because my answer is not in there.

i was never arguing that moving the season later won't change things, i did in fact suggest that it probably is the primary thing that ought to be re thought due to how much closer it's been shifted to peak rutting activity.

i was sensing, however, a sentiment in the montana thread that now "colorado is also hammering bucks with high powered rifles during the rut" when we're simply not, not yet at least. i admit, we are starting to toe the line a little. how severe the effects are of this later 3rd season early rut hunt are remains to be known.

i could vote "absolutely it will" based on the simple fact that a later season will indeed result in more bucks shot and i suspect we could start seeing age class and quality downgrades. but the caveat being that i can't sit here and say with any confidence that we're about to just destroy the age class and quality in all the units because of this. or maybe we will?

don't forget. colorado actually manages for objectives in DAUs and things are adjusted once they're met. maybe we see opportunity loss as a result of this?

no offense @rogerthat but i was sensing in the montana thread and with the starting of this thread a sentiment that colorado is now starting to go the scorched earth route of montana with a 3rd season hunt that starts to toe the line on early rut/rut, which i call full bullchit on. montana's been lapping us on that race for decades, and a shortened 7 day 3rd rifle hunt that lands us 1-2 weeks later and squarely in the early rut doesn't even land on the same planet in comparison.

Yeah I don’t disagree with anything you just stated. I don’t think Colorado could ever match Montana when it comes to mule deer….thank goodness

 

[D_Walt]

Something that seems to get overlooked when talking about “big” bucks is what the fawn crop was like 5-7 years prior. 2016-17 winter kill was very bad in many areas, especially the Gunnison units. I saw a CPW stat that the fawn crop was about 17% in 2017, and my understanding is winterkill is also very hard on deer under 1 year old, so most of the 2016 fawn crop was wiped out too. Those would be 5 and 6 year old deer this year - hard to kill bucks that don’t exist.

On my 2nd season hunt this year (in a Gunnison unit) I saw what I believe to be excellent numbers of deer, and more 3 and 4 year old 4 points than ever. I realize that’s anecdotal and not necessarily indicative of the statewide herd at all. I won’t claim that my week long hunt has now made me more knowledgeable than the biologists who study the herd and use actual data from scientific studies, but I left that hunt feeling optimistic about the future.

FWIW, I never even chambered a round but I did see a couple bucks that would have fit the bill, just didn’t work out. My daughter had the same tag in ‘21 and she ate hers as well. Not everyone was slaughtering every buck in sight, contrary to some other folks perceptions in other units. Now, when them woofs show up I’m sure we’re all screwed

 

[TheTone]

So focus on having a good hunt, and don't expect to see or kill instragram-worthy bucks every year.

IG worthy bucks seems to be a target of declining size. Seems to be a pile of MT and CO bucks on it this year that are “mature, trophy, old warrior” 150-170 deer this year. Anything for some street cred

 

[TOGIE]

i'm thinking about this thread, and i'm thinking about @Oak comment regarding how much of the state simply isn't managed for quality, necessarily, or "trophy" quality in other words.

i'm conflicted. i'm thinking about how so far as relatively new hunter what i look forward to more than anything is going out and looking for mule deer. i'd be pretty unhappy if it got to the point wherei could not hunt mule deer every year. whether that's because for some reason the majority of the state was managed for quality or because we hammer em too hard in this current 5 year BGSS and we lose opportunity, because unlike montana, i think CPW would largely tighten things up if things go south.

i've largely not hunted elk most years due to the pronghorna and mule deer tags i've acquired between colorado and wyoming taking up time. as i become a better mule deer hunter i think that fanaticism will only increase in terms of me sacrificing elk time for deer tags.

i don't know what i'm saying, except that, i don't want too much of the state to be managed for quality, i want lots of opportunity, but i don't want montana style opportunity. to that point i think we are basically already there. I think we are in such a solid sweet spot here in colorado with our structure.

so i guess, in summary, maybe the best thing is to move that season back 1-2 weeks again lest we see them lop the 3rd rifle tag numbers in half due to the results of what's going on now.

 

[Oak]

Well, to your point @TOGIE, and the point of the thread, if you don't hunt them till Thanksgiving you can offer a lot more opportunity while maintaining quality. Just like so many other things hunting-related, there are tradeoffs. If we closed down all but the main travel arteries on public land during hunting season we could have a lot more opportunity as well. If we limited technology we could have more opportunity.

 

[Bigjay73]

I posted this on another thread but I’ll post it here as well. When 5 guys who have never stepped foot in a unit can take out this many bucks with no prior experience in the unit(3rd season), I would suspect the date change will have an impact. Maybe not in the next 2-5 years but for the long haul I think buck quality will diminish: View attachment 251684

I want to hate them

 

[MTLabrador]

IG worthy bucks seems to be a target of declining size. Seems to be a pile of MT and CO bucks on it this year that are “mature, trophy, old warrior” 150-170 deer this year. Anything for some street cred

Wonderful tradition of hunting these rutting bucks thanksgiving week.

 

[TOGIE]

Wonderful tradition of hunting these rutting bucks thanksgiving week.

View attachment 251877

When did it become mandatory to use phrases like “put in the work”; “paid off”; “old warrior” etc

These dingbats sound like a bunch of mfing colorado archery elk hunters

 

[westbranch]

When did it become mandatory to use phrases like “put in the work”; “paid off”; “old warrior” etc

These dingbats sound like a bunch of mfing colorado archery elk hunters

Slight correction.

 

[westbranch]

Something that seems to get overlooked when talking about “big” bucks is what the fawn crop was like 5-7 years prior. 2016-17 winter kill was very bad in many areas, especially the Gunnison units. I saw a CPW stat that the fawn crop was about 17% in 2017, and my understanding is winterkill is also very hard on deer under 1 year old, so most of the 2016 fawn crop was wiped out too. Those would be 5 and 6 year old deer this year - hard to kill bucks that don’t exist.

On my 2nd season hunt this year (in a Gunnison unit) I saw what I believe to be excellent numbers of deer, and more 3 and 4 year old 4 points than ever. I realize that’s anecdotal and not necessarily indicative of the statewide herd at all. I won’t claim that my week long hunt has now made me more knowledgeable than the biologists who study the herd and use actual data from scientific studies, but I left that hunt feeling optimistic about the future.

FWIW, I never even chambered a round but I did see a couple bucks that would have fit the bill, just didn’t work out. My daughter had the same tag in ‘21 and she ate hers as well. Not everyone was slaughtering every buck in sight, contrary to some other folks perceptions in other units. Now, when them woofs show up I’m sure we’re all screwed

Interesting on the Gunnison unit, we were in one 2nd season and found deer but definitely not excellent numbers with multiple 4 pt bucks. But I am not a great indicator of how things are.

 

[FREAK]

Wonderful tradition of hunting these rutting bucks thanksgiving week.

View attachment 251877

#oldwarrior, #montanatransplant #traditions

 

[TheTone]

Wonderful tradition of hunting these rutting bucks thanksgiving week.

View attachment 251877

I’d like to see that deers teeth to see how much of an old warrior it is

 

[Oak]

I actually thought that it looked like an old deer.

 

[TOGIE]

I actually thought that it looked like an old deer.

Coulda been a 7 year old record slammer. I would still ridicule the word choice

 

[Oak]

Coulda been a 7 year old record slammer. I would still ridicule the word choice

Yep, forgot to quote @TheTone.