Cattle

[idelkhntr]

I'm just curious what other Elk hunters experience has been when there is cattle in their hunting areas. Last year there were Elk everywhere in this one area I hunt. After Labor Day, the local cattleman moved his cows into the area. After that, you couldn't find an Elk anywhere in there. This is all public Forest Service ground. This year, I went to the Forest Service, asked them for a map of the different pasturing units. When I asked for that they offered me a schedule of when the cows were supposed to move from unit to unit. He asked me if I wanted to know for hunting purposes and I said yes. He said well that is important let's get you what you need. I must say he was very helpful. Anyway, looking at the schedule for this year, my favorite Elk area will have cattle in it from mid August to mid September. My plan is to hunt a different area the first half of September and go back to my favorite spot about a week after they move the cattle out. Again, I;m just curious what others experiences have been. Thanks.

 

[JoseCuervo]

There is not a single thing about having some Welfare Rancher's cows on your public lands that enhances your experience.

Just enjoy the fact your experience is being ruined by a cow that is being charged $0.02 per day.

 

[tarheel]

On a couple of occasions some years ago I was hunting CO in October and had riders in my hunt area rounding up cows and trying to drive them out of the backs of the canyons. Decided to find a new place to hunt after that.

 

[THWAK1]

I ocassionally hunt national forest where ranchers are running cattle. I have had them ruin a stalk/hunt and have also killed elk close to where the cattle are. They do not move the elk out of an area, but will alert them to your presence.

My advice is to not worry about the cattle and go elk hunting, or you can wait until the ranchers move them off national forest. Either way, go make it happen and good luck.

 

[sweetnectar]

Cows and elk inter mingle. You spook an Angus, you spook an elk. You herd cattle you drive the elk out of the way. There is a reason Montana decoy has a cow as a decoy.

 

[idnative1948]

I hope we can agree to disagree once in a while. Dad used to cattle ranch out of Dillon and Toston after he got burned out of chasing sheep in the Little Lost River country of Idaho. Of course he lost his arse on both cattle ranches and we moved back to Idaho.
He also told us that cattle and elk are going to try and vie for the same bottoms, ridge tops, and feed being that both of them are large animals. The elk will move off range but not too far unless spooked. Have seen more deer and lopes hanging out with cattle in pastures than elk. JMHO and what we have learned from Pops. If the ranchers still have cattle in our area come mid-October we always move a drainage right or left of them.

 

[----]

I hope we can agree to disagree once in a while. Dad used to cattle ranch out of Dillon and Toston after he got burned out of chasing sheep in the Little Lost River country of Idaho. Of course he lost his arse on both cattle ranches and we moved back to Idaho.
He also told us that cattle and elk are going to try and vie for the same bottoms, ridge tops, and feed being that both of them are large animals. The elk will move off range but not too far unless spooked. Have seen more deer and lopes hanging out with cattle in pastures than elk. JMHO and what we have learned from Pops. If the ranchers still have cattle in our area come mid-October we always move a drainage right or left of them.

Exactly my experience.

My family's ranch near Dillon didn't have cattle on it last year for the first time in god knows when. There was honestly probably 5x more elk activity than normal. This is riverbottom, and the wild grasses just went crazy. Interesting though, the whitetail numbers where steady and maybe even down a little.

A couple times now I've scouted a herd of elk on public and had them pushed out by cattle moving in.

 

[elkohalic]

I have called elk right through the middle of grazing cattle. Both animals do eat the same forage but they co-exist well enough where I hunt. True if you spook cattle in elk country your going to spook the elk.

Sheep on the other hand seem to have a bit more drastic effect on cattle.

And Jose the next time you whine about cattle grazing on public ground you might want to think where your burger comes from. Most cattle that are slaughtered for meat start out as calves chasing their moms on public range.
Also ever think why some of the worst fires we have seen in decades are popping up destroying elk habitat for who knows how long????? Its because more restrictions are being put on grazing public lands than ever before. Feed has grown up, not been grazed off, dies falling over and the next year more feed comes up and the process repeats itself lending to an abundance of fuel for fires.

Yes there are some ranchers that have abused their grazing permits but to lump all ranchers into the category of "welfare ranchers" is like lumping all Democrats as socialists.

 

[JoseCuervo]

.

And Jose the next time you whine about cattle grazing on public ground you might want to think where your burger comes from. Most cattle that are slaughtered for meat start out as calves chasing their moms on public range.
Also ever think why some of the worst fires we have seen in decades are popping up destroying elk habitat for who knows how long????? Its because more restrictions are being put on grazing public lands than ever before. Feed has grown up, not been grazed off, dies falling over and the next year more feed comes up and the process repeats itself lending to an abundance of fuel for fires.

Yes there are some ranchers that have abused their grazing permits but to lump all ranchers into the category of "welfare ranchers" is like lumping all Democrats as socialists.

I have a hunch you are more familiar with bullshit than you are with bulls and cows and cattle markets.

There are 8.3 million AMUs per year for Welfare Ranchers on My Public Lands. Knock that number down by 10% to adjust for the number of Range Maggots and you get 7.5 AMUs on BLM land. Divide that by two, and you get 3.75 million AMUs of each years calves "chasing their moms". The FS has another amount, but smaller.


As of Jan 1, 2012, there were 90.8 million head of cattle in this country, all candidates for hamburgers at fast food. That works out to 1.1 Billion AMUs per year in this country, of which, only a tiny 3.75 AMUs million were Welfare Rancher's out destroying My Public Lands on BLM land. (smaller amounts on State and FS lands).

There is no reason for hunters to ever defend the damage to our hunting and MyPublic Lands caused by Welfare Ranchers.

 

[elkohalic]

Your a sharp tack aren't you. Didn't you mean Animal Units per Month or AUMs?? Not sure what AMUs are.... So what I am getting is that you would rather see the range burn up, destroying habitat for everything than see it grazed??
Grazing at $.02 per day?? The fee is set by your glorious government Jose.

 

[1_pointer]

Cattle presence will alter elk movement patterns in the short term (as reported by peer reviewed journal articles and anecdotal evidence I've collected). In most cases they don't leave the area, just change their habits and locations within the same area. However, both sources also report that elk will often move back into an area after the cattle are gone to feed on regrowth that occurs. A ranch in No. Utah uses this effectively to know where the herds will be come hunting season. For them its about a 2 to 4 week lag after the removal of cattle and appears to be controlled by weather impacts on regrowth. IME, sheep have a larger impact on elk than cattle, but that may be attributed to the more human/dog activity associated with herding sheep. The same ranch has contracted sheep grazing to move elk out of riparian areas so as to avoid over grazing of them by the elk. Yes, it does happen...

To the OP, I'd say your plan is a sound one, especially if you get some moisture to stimulate the regrowth of the grasses.

Randy11- Will the absence of cattle be an on-going thing? Reason I ask is that it would be interesting to see if elk activity remains higher as time goes on. A researcher I know from Utah State has been working in the Book Cliffs of Utah where cattle were removed for a bison reintroduction. The bison are not using the same areas the cattle were and this is apparently have an impact on elk distribution. Elk used to use the same areas as the cattle, but now those same areas are nearly void of elk activity. His hypothesis is that the grasses have become more rank/wolfy without the cattle grazing in these areas (there has been no other disturbance such as insects, fire, or human caused) and the elk have thus moved to other areas. I haven't heard from him if this has impacted overall numbers or just distribution.

 

[cur dog]

My experience has been that the elk aren't as effected by cattle as they are by sheep. Throw 5000 sheep 4 mangy dogs 3 horses and a stinky hispanic guy that lives in a tin chuck wagon into you hunt area and see what happens. I'll take cattle over sheep any day.

 

[sbhooper]

First off, I am not really a proponent of grazing on mountain land as it entails only a very small portion of the cattle in this country anyway. However, many of the areas of public land would not have water sources if not for the grazing. Also, years of buildup of grass and brush causes a lot of problems in fire control. The cattle will push the other animlas to a different area for the time they are there and so a person just needs to figure that into the equation. Responsible grazing is not necessarily bad. I have seen abuses, though, and just like any other abuse, this cannot be tolerated.

I used to hunt an area in Colorado where sheep were run all summer. I talked to an outfitter that lived there and he said if the sheep were run on the lower side of the mountain, then the elk were higher up and vis versa.

One thing that I do agree on is that the fees are rediculously low, but that seems to be the norm for how public land is handled. Blame our pathetic government-NOT the rancher. He is just utilzing a resoource that is provided to him.

I believe that a bigger problem than the grazing, is the fact that lots of ranchers have complete control of public land and lock it off. I have seen it personally and have thought about doing just what Randy did in Montana. I just could not make myself pay for a chopper though. The government should either force them to allow access, or trade the land for land that is connected to public already.

 

[elkohalic]

First off, I am not really a proponent of grazing on mountain land as it entails only a very small portion of the cattle in this country anyway. However, many of the areas of public land would not have water sources if not for the grazing. Also, years of buildup of grass and brush causes a lot of problems in fire control. The cattle will push the other animlas to a different area for the time they are there and so a person just needs to figure that into the equation. Responsible grazing is not necessarily bad. I have seen abuses, though, and just like any other abuse, this cannot be tolerated.

I used to hunt an area in Colorado where sheep were run all summer. I talked to an outfitter that lived there and he said if the sheep were run on the lower side of the mountain, then the elk were higher up and vis versa.

One thing that I do agree on is that the fees are rediculously low, but that seems to be the norm for how public land is handled. Blame our pathetic government-NOT the rancher. He is just utilzing a resoource that is provided to him.

I believe that a bigger problem than the grazing, is the fact that lots of ranchers have complete control of public land and lock it off. I have seen it personally and have thought about doing just what Randy did in Montana. I just could not make myself pay for a chopper though. The government should either force them to allow access, or trade the land for land that is connected to public already.

I can see your point and do agree somewhat. Responsible grazing benefits the range and wildlife while irresponsible practices do nothing but harm. Just last weekend I was checking some of our fields and there were close to 200 sage grouse right in the middle of the cattle. They liked the new starts that were popping up as the cattle graze off the courser stuff. Take an area that the cattle have been taken off for a year or two and they no longer use that area. They can't see the predators and each other on their lecs.

Elk will flock to an area when it is rested for a year or two, but like 1_pointer mentioned after 3-5 yrs of so the elk won't be as thick in that area as the feed is courser. I have never experienced elk being totally pushed out of an area from cattle grazing there. When it is time to gather, yes that will relocate the animals for a couple of weeks.

As for public land behind private ground I see both sides of the fence. I too have not been able to access ground that was landlocked by deeded. You know, its a bummer.. If I can't get permission then o well, I look for a different spot to chase critters. However if there was a park that my kids wanted to play at and it was behind your house, should the government force you to allow me to walk through your living room and across your lawn to access it. If I accidentally toss out some bear cans and leave the gate open to let the dog out... oops my bad. I know I wouldn't be ok with that.

 

[noharleyyet]

Jose only eats Kobe.

 

[sbhooper]

Elkoholic,
I understand what you are saying about the access, but the point that I guess I am trying to make is why should that rancher be given exclusive access to land that you and I are paying to maintain? If they are going to have exclusivity to that land, then they should have to be paying market priced grazing fees-not the low cost, taxpayer subidized fees.

There is a whole section of BLM land on the south side of the Three Forks Ranch in Colorado. My guess is that through their political connections, the public access road was closed, which allows exclusive access for Three Forks because the land is just inside their boundary a short distance. They have expensive elk hunts on land that is subsidized by you and me and we have no access to it.

There is nothing right about that.

 

[Dinkshooter]

My absolute bestest elk spot has not seen a moo cow in a long time. It is nice not stepping in cow flop every 10 ft. If the elk are adverse to feeding on unmolested grass and such I guess someone should tell them so.

 

[bjtc_brian]

My absolute bestest elk spot has not seen a moo cow in a long time. It is nice not stepping in cow flop every 10 ft. If the elk are adverse to feeding on unmolested grass and such I guess someone should tell them so.

If you give me the exact coordinates as to where they are, I will go have a talk with them...

 

[SWMontana1]

I love how some of these threads of "innocent" questions just get hi-jacked into political debates!!

 

[Jwill]

Though my elk hunting experience is limited, I know I don't want to hunt in the same area that grazing is going on again. I learned this lesson the hard way, at the cost of a NR cow tag. Muzzleloader season just happened to coincide with roundup time. We finally found the critters, but too little, too late. As has been said here, from now on, I'll ask BLM or USFS where the grazing activities are happening and hunt accordingly.