Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[Forkyfinder]

So are you advocating for traditional ranchers to sell out in Montana? Is that’s what is best for hunting and wildlife? This is a hunting site

No. I just dont think the cost/ease of doing business in a particular place is all that relevant.

You cant buy land and make it as a farmer or rancher. Thats been true for many decades.

Edit: In fact -why doesnt someone tell me a business theyd expect to make it in? Borrowing everything and having nothing initially? This comparison is laughable - and gets played out by the "ranching" community way too much.

 

[Trial153]

Still can’t make a living. It’s easier there I’ll agree, in fact every River south of me it gets a little easier.


My statement was implying “you can’t go buy a ranch at $1500 an acre and make it pay”. Borrow the money for the land, and then there’s a little problem of buying cattle(don’t forget a few high price bulls) machinery etc..

Why is that the tax payers issue? This is no different than the insurance and banking lobby passing underwriting laws that guarantee their margins.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

Sounds like it would be beneficial to sell the ranch and live off the interest earned.

It sounds like poor country to try and graze cattle in at 30 acres per cow. Incredibly inefficient if nothing else. I don't think it's a good idea to run a business that's not profiting appropriately based on their location.

Personally, if I was doing a job that wasn't earning me enough money to be happy, I would change jobs. I wouldn't turn to the government.

You say that untill all these guys have sold.. someday not our lifetime, even our kids, or even their kids... but someday it will be stripmalls, subdivisions, and apartments places you never thought you'd see them. Or the other evil being, now its all large landowners acquiring more, and more. Requesting more restrictions to access. Also what is the long term goal they have private wildlife and waters? That's about what you are left with. Almost makes me want to go get a cows not condos sticker. I personally think already privately owned open spaces are safest with a family farm who really gives a crap about their land. It's not about money it's about what value do you see in wide open spaces and not having people crawling all over? I don't know anything, but I do know the way bozeman, blew up and if that happend on a larger scale it's just a matter of time 150 years maybe more but really, at some point nothing is really safe from development. unless not to be morbid, but a wide population die off happened with humans. It's gonna be a struggle for land forever. I personally don't really care how much these little guys get free or don't get free to keep their slice of heaven. Yeah large farms I'd agree could go take a hike. And it's not really that either it's large landowners with shit agendas. This is how the wealthy keep wealthy is taking advantage of everything they can. So I say the little guys should do it to. It's more then just what they make in a year. It's the value of what's held by not seeing city lights everywhere. Being able to still go places for a week or two and see very few people is so much more valuable than lining pockets.

 

[jmcd]

You continue to show your ignorance.

I wish gov’t would get out of farming/ranching, as do most if not all of us. Guess what, they aren’t. By the way, we all pay taxes too.

FYI, I’m not making 50% more than the median, and there is not any “brand new iron” on our farm/ranch.

True story! A few of my Econ classes in college studied effect of govt involvement in markets. Cliff notes version: producers are better off without govt involvement, but consumers could face more volatile price fluctuations.

 

[rjthehunter]

@Trial153 and @rjthehunter @MtEngineer this is likely as profitable of a spot in Montana as there is. Are you advocating for all cattle ranchers in Montana to sell out? The economics aren’t what you think. That’s my point. There are major benefits to wildlife in keeping traditional ranchers on the landscape. I’m okay with some small subsidies to do that.

I'm not saying they should sell out. But I'm also not saying they should be running a business that is unable to turn a profit without the help of the government. That's bad business practices.

 

[rogerthat]

No. I just dont think the cost/ease of doing business in a particular place is all that relevant.

You cant buy land and make it as a farmer or rancher. Thats been true for many decades.

You might not think that but for centuries the US govt has been doing just that to achieve the goals and results in specific industries. Back to my comment, I’m okay with the small subsidies if it maintains status quo for the small traditional rancher

 

[rogerthat]

True story! A few of my Econ classes in college studied effect of govt involvement in markets. Cliff notes version: producers are better off without govt involvement, but consumers could face more volatile price fluctuations.

This is the crux of where the economics goes wrong for the rancher. Likely from my example those fall calves should be worth $4k/hd but what do you think consumers would think of that?

 

[rjthehunter]

You continue to show your ignorance.

I wish gov’t would get out of farming/ranching, as do most if not all of us. Guess what, they aren’t. By the way, we all pay taxes too.

FYI, I’m not making 50% more than the median, and there is not any “brand new iron” on our farm/ranch.

Are you turning a profit without government subsidies?

 

[Forkyfinder]

This is the crux of where the economics goes wrong for the rancher. Likely from my example those fall calves should be worth $4k/hd but what do you think consumers would think of that?

They'd probably think of pork, or chicken? The market (and its alternatives) sets the rate for everything - cattle included.

You might not think that but for centuries the US govt has been doing just that to achieve the goals and results in specific industries. Back to my comment, I’m okay with the small subsidies if it maintains status quo for the small traditional rancher

I dont follow - can you restate what you mean about other industries?

 

[D_Walt]

Ever heard of Texas?

There is zero land in Texas that can pay for itself with a cattle operation alone.

 

[rogerthat]

They'd probably think of pork, or chicken? The market (and its alternatives) sets the rate for everything - cattle included.

I dont follow - can you restate what you mean about other industries?

The govt subsidizes where it wants industry to head. The easy one and most prominent right now is electrification

 

[rogerthat]

They'd probably think of pork, or chicken? The market (and its alternatives) sets the rate for everything - cattle included.

I dont follow - can you restate what you mean about other industries?

Back when the Taylor Grazing act was passed those were different times and different priorities to bring things back to your original topic. If that law were rewrote now and maybe it should be things would likely be a lot different

 

[Eric Albus]

Are you turning a profit without government subsidies?

most farms/ranches in NE operate on a 2-4% profit margin.
It is the poorest business model I know of.

I think we’d all be more profitable if the government was out of our business. However it ain’t gonna happen…and it’s for the consumer’s benefit. With the cheap food policy our govt has had it leaves more
Money to spend on vacations and fun. Happy populous, happy nation, no civil unrest.

 

[kwyeewyk]

I see this thread is progressing well

 

[Forkyfinder]

most farms/ranches in NE operate on a 2-4% profit margin.
It is the poorest business model I know of.

I think we’d all be more profitable if the government was out of our business. However it ain’t gonna happen…and it’s for the consumer’s benefit. With the cheap food policy our govt has had it leaves more
Money to spend on vacations and fun. Happy populous, happy nation, no civil unrest.

Amazon had a negative profit margin last year. Guessing you dont think they have a "poor business model"

 

[rjthehunter]

most farms/ranches in NE operate on a 2-4% profit margin.
It is the poorest business model I know of.

I think we’d all be more profitable if the government was out of our business. However it ain’t gonna happen…and it’s for the consumer’s benefit. With the cheap food policy our govt has had it leaves more
Money to spend on vacations and fun. Happy populous, happy nation, no civil unrest.

Why do you do it if it's the poorest business model you know of?

There's massive benefits that come with owning 1000s of acres. Which are typically capitalized on.

I'm glad we're on the same page that the government should stay out of it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Hunters: We want access.

Also Hunters: You suck a business owner and should give up.

Also, also hunters: Why do landowners think we're dicks?

 

[Trial153]

Hunters: We want access.

Also Hunters: You suck a business owner and should give up.

Also, also hunters: Why do landowners think we're dicks?

Ranchers: Elk are eating my grass. I want money .

Hunters: we will kill the elk.

Ranchers: Okay pay me money to kill the elk.

Ranchers: why do hunters know we are Dicks? good question ..but let’s block some access to public land and make sure they are right while we’re at.

 

[Gus Chiggins]

Ranchers: Elk are eating my grass new field plantings and hay. I want money .

Hunters: we will kill the elk. (There will be 10 of us, even drunk Uncle Jack, and there may be a few extra dead cow elk when we're done because you know, shooting at a big herd gets a bit confusing and Uncle Jack always starts yelling something about "Charlie", but you can keep those extra for yourself. Just load 'em up with the tractor.)

Ranchers: Okay pay me money to kill the elk.

Ranchers: why do hunters know we are Dicks? good question ..but let’s block some access to public land and make sure they are right while we’re at.

Good points, but tongue in cheek I added more context.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Hunters: We want access.

Also Hunters: You suck a business owner and should give up.

Also, also hunters: Why do landowners think we're dicks?

I think feeling a unique moral authority (and condescending tone to others producing) to subsidy is a bit strange - and worth questioning?

Not near as much as rural America is. The sadistic part of me would really like to see a good old fashioned depression. Where people could start comprehending where their last meal came from, one where people would be actually willing to go to work just for food. We have become a nation of entitled sissy’s. A nation where a huge percentage of the population does not even begin to understand that we(farm/ranch) community is the direct beneficiary of gov’t subsidies, so the masses(everyone who produces mostly nothing) is the indirect beneficiary of said subsidies, with cheap, safe, regulated staples(food for those who think staples are for paper, or fences).