Barrel cleaning and shooting out barrels...thoughts.

[Western Traveler1]

Recent threads regarding breaking in a new barrel and how often to clean from then on set me to thinking about my Rifle and routine.
I had my 700 Stainless LH in 300WM with laminated stock worked when brand new. Pillared, bedded, floated and trigger worked along with a custom break. This was many years ago over 25 for sure. I have probably shot less than 10 rounds of factory through it in that time. The rest of the time were my hand loads pictured here.
I used to keep tract of rounds through but lost tract at some point.
I broke it in with the one shot, clean, one shot etc routine. It is a much better shooter than me.

Dewey rod, bore guide, Shooters Choice and Sweets. New brush only, per cleaning, and straight through sweeps only, always.

At one point I started having fliers in my groups while putting it on paper before a hunt. After checking mounts, scope etc and being baffled a buddy said “clean it.” I had less than 20 rounds through at the time. I cleaned it, put a fouling round through and no more fliers.
Ever since I’ve cleaned it at ten rounds max, a fouling round and ready to hunt. even if I kill 2 or three animals a year and put one round on paper before the season that gives me 2 to 3 seasons between cleanings. I’m guessing I have around 200 rounds through the barrel.
I’m at that point, 9 rounds through and was ready to clean until I read a thread the other day about some of your routines.
Here are my questions;
1. How many rounds through a older Remington 300WM before signs of wear?
2. Was the need to clean at less than 20 rounds a fluke? I don’t like shooting paper with it and have always been conscientious about its condition. Not to say it hasn’t been in a rifle scabbard a few times on horseback.
3. Am I overthinking barrel wear and should just go shoot it to find out if it actually minds a dirty barrel?
4. Have others had guns that just shot better clean with a fouling round only?

 

[azelkhntr]

life span of a good barrel should be 10-15k rounds.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I've never had groups go downhill due to fouling anywhere near 20 rounds. For the last several years I've done a cleaning every 100, just because it's a handy benchmark, not even due to groups opening up.

 

[VikingsGuy]

life span of a good barrel should be 10-15k rounds.

Depends on your purposes - if you like to chase accuracy, they can be done in 1500-3000 depending on the cartridge, how hot your loads are and how hot you let the barrel get during strings of fire.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

life span of a good barrel should be 10-15k rounds.

I had a big thing typed out but I'm gonna let somebody like @ImBillT (who I probably agree with on the matter) wade into that swamp.

 

[Bigjay73]

I had a big thing typed out but I'm gonna let somebody like @ImBillT (who I probably agree with on the matter) wade into that swamp.

Same here

 

[joelweb]

I find my accuracy goes up with a dirty barrel. I clean my go to hunting rifle really well once annually at the end of every hunting season.

 

[Bigjay73]

I've never had groups go downhill due to fouling anywhere near 20 rounds. For the last several years I've done a cleaning every 100, just because it's a handy benchmark, not even due to groups opening up.

I just clean after a day at the range. Could be 20 rds, could be 100 rds. I think I'm more worried about getting oil on it for protection, than getting the fouling out for accuracy. I haven't seen an accuracy drop due to a dirty barrel, but I've also never had a copper fouled barrel, which is a whole nother can of worms

 

[Western Traveler1]

Well damn, I did a search before posting, LOL. My loads surely aren’t hot. Those two pictured are all I shoot and I wait between shots. Usually stroll down to the target and back and wait for the barrel to cool (We have a one lane 600 yard bench out here so not holding anybody up).
Is it super unusual to need to clean that often. Not like I like cleaning, I figure a few hundred rounds though the Glock before even considering it.
Is the Shooters Choice/Sweets still a good choice?

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I use wipe out for cleaning now. Way easier. My current two rifles I use for hunting both have around 100 rounds down the pipe with no loss of accuracy.

I've put 2k rounds through a Glock without cleaning, just to see how it would function. Easy cheesy.

 

[cowboy]

life span of a good barrel should be 10-15c rounds.

There - I fixed it for you with a more reasonable SWAG

 

[ImBillT]

life span of a good barrel should be 10-15k rounds.

Where exactly are we drawing the line between barrel life and death?

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Where exactly are we drawing the line between barrel life and death?

Death is when you back over the gun with a pickup.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Death is when you back over the gun with a pickup.

Or lose in a mysterious boating accident

 

[Western Traveler1]

I find my accuracy goes up with a dirty barrel. I clean my go to hunting rifle really well once annually at the end of every hunting season.

That would be after like 6 rounds tops.

I guess I will put some more rounds through it to see how it acts. Up to the flier incident I wasn’t cleaning so often. Not a copper problem, I just use the Sweets to check. I’m not that knowledgeable. I was told what to do early on and have just kept doing it. Not too old to learn and most of you guys impress me with your knowledge. That’s why I’m asking.

 

[Brian in Montana]

I have this impression that up to a point groups tend to get tighter as fouling increases, 3 to 10 rounds or so, then accuracy starts to decrease at some point, 30 or 40 rounds of thereabout. I also think I've noticed that rifles chambered for relatively slower cartridges (.308 , 7mm-08) tend to have their accuracy effected less at the end of that curve than relatively fast rifles (.270, 300WM). I've always felt I need to clean the faster class more frequently, with fewer rounds down the tube, than then those of the slower. This is entirely just impressions and not at all scientific. It just seems that way with the rifles I've shot through the years.

That said, I have an ancient Remington Model 600 in .243 that behaves very much like the OP described. Its a pretty accurate little gun that has put a few hundred pounds of venison in the freezer over the years, but it sends some remarkable fliers with a little fouling.

 

[Bigjay73]

Death is when you back over the gun with a pickup.

This isn't speaking from experience, is it?

 

[PNWGator]

Can’t remember the last time I cleaned the bore of any rifle we own. My wife’s PRS rifle has 2k plus rounds through it with no loss in accuracy.

I also own a perfectly functioning G19 that has been run over by a one ton pickup. Don’t clean it either. Just sayin.

 

[ImBillT]

Finally had time to read the OP.

1. How many rounds before wear? As far as continuing to shoot like the target consistently, 1000-1500. Every barrel is different, but it should last slightly longer than a 6.5-284 or .243Win.

2. Was the need to clean at fewer than 20rnds a fluke? Not with a factory Rem700 barrel, or a barrel with fire cracking in the throat.

3. Are you overthinking cleaning? If the fliers are within your acceptable group size...yes. If they are not, buy a Krieger barrel and thank me later.

4. Yes. The vast majority of 100-200yd benchrest shooters will tell you that barrels shoot their best clean. Most of them will burn the first shot after cleaning. Shooters from pretty much every other discipline will tell you the opposite. Short range benchrest shooters shoot short shot strings, AND the only slightly larger groups sizes resulting from a dirty barrel will result in getting last place. Most other competitive shooting sports require many more shots to be fired in a relay, and as the barrel fouls in initially, the POI will begin to shift until the barrel has reached a sort of equilibrium in terms of fouling, and they can’t have that taking place during a relay, so they have to shoot dirty, and they have to have a barrel capable of shooting dirty. A hand-lapped custom barrel that was button or cut rifled will shoot 15-30rnds before fouling to starts making POI shift. Some factory barrels can hang with that. Some can’t shoot more than 5-6. A hand-lapped custom barrel, after fouling in, will usually shoot very nearly as well as it did clean, but may now go another 100-300 rounds before it needs a cleaning. Some factory barrels can hang. Some may only go last 15-20 rounds before groups open up. Some may go to crap at shot 5-6 and never tighten up. A hand-lapped custom barrel should be capable of AVERAGING .250” or smaller for 5-shot groups at 100yds, and is usually attached to a fairly accurate rifle, being fed fairly accurate ammo, and being operated by someone who can tell if a flier was gun handling, wind, or a flier. Some factory barrels can hang. Some are more like .5MOA barrels, and drop offs due to fouling or barrel life become more difficult to detect. Some are more like 1+MOA drop offs get a lot more difficult to detect. Just about all of them are attached to average rifles.


Most factory 700 barrels would shoot 1MOA or under for quite a few shots. Could be 20, maybe 50, maybe more...I’ve had two that were abnormally good. My dad has had a couple that were absolutely terrible. It depends on how smooth they are. Remington 700 barrels are hammer forged onto a mandrel to form the rifling. Sometimes they use that mandrel a few times more than they probably should have, or don’t lube it right, or something. I don’t know. Every now and then you just get one that’s complete crap. A 300WM will fire crack a throat relatively fast. A good smooth barrel can live with that for a while before it starts fouling into oblivion really quickly. One that’s a little rough or full of ripples will usually foul out a little early even when it’s new, and then it’ll fall apart quickly once the throat starts to fire crack. If a barrel is fouling bad enough, it can toss some serious fliers. There are also 100 other things that could toss some serious fliers. Legitimately testing it enough to statistically prove the cause would burn through a boatload of time, components, and barrel life. If the fliers are reasonable for whatever you’re hunting, don’t worry about it. If it’s not, pull the barrel, keep it, put a Krieger on it, if you’re still getting problems your troubles are elsewhere and you’re factory barrel may be fine. Don’t worry, your Krieger was a wise investment. find something entertaining to do to your factory barrel.

 

[44hunter45]

I don't have an opinion about what is right or wrong. It would be worth what you pay for it.

I have a clarifying question, though. Do you get powder fouling on your cleaning patches or copper?

My264WM will start opening up after 10-20 rounds. The bore scope says its "shot out" from the amount of erosion at the throat, but it shoots sub MOA if I keep it clean. My pet load (which I will have to retire when this bunch runs out, since Hodgdon retired the powder.) is 7x.x grains of H870 with a 140 grain Sierra 1730 GameKing BT. H870 fouls FAST. When I clean I get this OD greenish sludge out, especially in the first few inches. I get very little copper.

I manage this the same way you are doing. I check my zero, clean it, foul it, hunt it.

Like @ImBillT describes, it has cracking in the throat. It looks like an alligator hide.