ATV users don't really want to weed out the "bad apples"

[cjcj]

Ten bears i don`t own an ATV...but don`t you think that it makes good sense that if you have some bad ATV operators... that the ATV clubs/groups would want to help/support a crackdown on the misfits? The site you posted said they support/promote... safe/responsible ATV use......Its in most of the advertising... get out tear it up... even the jeep/nissan commercials show this type of mentality....i love my 4x4 truck but i don`t go out "mud bogging" and just plowing up stuff....I still contend that an ATV is just a tool......but it is obvious that there is a problem....is it hunters? or just rec. riders?

 

[1_pointer]

Erik- When I posed that very question to a member of the board of a local ORV group he stated that he did want to have to mark up his $5K machine! From what I've seen the groups aren't pushing for it.

cjcj- IMO, more laws and closed areas will hopefully get some of the ATVers to start policing their own. It also allows for LEO to write tickets for abuse in those areas. I admit that enforcement is a problem, but without the laws there's nothing to enforce. Right now our office has 1 LEO for 3.2 million acres of public land! But, we got to 'donate' 1.5% of our budget to Iraq...

 

[ZAMBONIMAN]

Erik and 1point,
atv in Minnesota must have a license plate on them. However they are small, 6"x8" or so, on the back underneath the rack. If you can read them, great, but chances are slim to none. Atv's for use on a farm do not need plates on them. Most atv are usually caked in mud/dust/dirt, so the plates aren't recognizable anyway..

 

[Ten Bears]

ERIK/1-P/IT/ETAL, Idaho requires that all ATVs not used strictly for agricultural uses on private proerty be licensed and registered either with a small license plate or an offraod sticker.

IT, maybe you should go back through your posts. You stated that you did have time to spend you hunting time collecting the sticker/license plate number from some ATV that bothered one of you hunts. I don't think you even knew if the area was open for riding, but you were offended that they would be there (ring any bells?).

1-P, if your LEO has that many acres to police, how do YOU expect him to handle the increased load of calls that will come infrom more closures? If the guy is as overworked as you imply, why put more stuff on his desk?

http://www.atvidaho.info/regulations.php

The Idaho Parks and Recreation Department have an informative brochure available on their web site. Idaho Code is still vague in areas that deal with ATVs so in some cases there is not a definitive answer to what is legal and what is not. The interpretation varies as well from county to county. Some counties are notorious for harassing and citing ATV operators, while most wave hello as long as you are acting responsibly.

Below are some pertinent pieces of Idaho Code as they relate to ATVs. This information is supplied as an aid to determining legal and proper use of OHVs and is not the complete, current, or final rules and regulations. It is your reponsibility to ensure compliance with any and all applicable laws.

http://www.idahoparks.org/pdf/motorbikeregs.pdf

 

[1_pointer]

Because, right now he can get a call about someone tearing up the country and not do anything. One LEO can only cover so much ground and write so many tickets, but he's got to be able to enforce something for there to be a difference.

 

[MattK]

TB- They don't have to handle a lot of cases, going out and ticketing them. Remember, you say the ATV clubs are all in to policing themselves...Are you now saying that ATV riders break the law? Are you saying they don't police themselves? FLIP-FLOP, FLIP-FLOP, FLIP-FLOP...

 

[Oak]

1-P, if your LEO has that many acres to police, how do YOU expect him to handle the increased load of calls that will come infrom more closures?

Good point, MattK. What you're saying, TB, is that ATV riders don't give a damn what's open or closed, they're going riding. That's about what I thought.

Oak

 

[Ten Bears]

MATTy, keep the FLIP FLOPs for your self, unless of course you can show where I have denied the existance of rogue/illegal ATV riders. I say put the task of busting the illegal riders on the backs of the recreating public (kinda like the anti poaching programs) rather then on the back of one overtaxed inforcement guy, but your bias blinds you to that aspect of things. Are you saying that ATV clubs aren't policing themselves? I say they are, and are getting better at it. If they weren't, 100,000 ATVs would bedoing one heck of a lot of damage. The figure is that about 10% of ATV riders are breaking the laws (clue, in Idaho alone 10% of 100,000 is 10,000, and you claim to be a college graduate, REFUND). I would wager that 1 in 10 hunters also breaks game laws. Care to dispute that?

OAK, please think about the math of the issue, then open your mouth. If an area isn't closed to riding riders are going to go there. If an area is closed to riding, but the inforcement is weak, illegal riders are going to go there. If inforcement falls on the shoulders of one inforcement officer, he is going to be running down cases, but not getting many solved....... Any of this clue in yet? If the area is open (even if it's just a few trails) and there is some incentive (financial maybe drawn from the registration fees account?) legal riders will report illegal riders. Who would best know makes/models/years of machines better then riders? Are you getting any of this yet? How many hunters turn in poachers but decline the reward? Not many I'd bet.

 

[Nemont]

I would wager that 1 in 10 hunters also breaks game laws. Care to dispute that?

But 1 in 10 hunters don't destroy habitat, cause erosion, ride in stream beds, pioneer new trails etc, etc. That is a pretty week stand there. That is like saying illegal riding is just a nuisance because 50% of all drivers disobey the speed limit. There is NO connection to ATV abuse of the land and hunters not wearing blaze orange or party hunting except when the Fat Asses road illegally out to where the illegal game is downed.

Nemont

 

[Ten Bears]

So, lets get this straight, for the record, IT can't be bothered to take the time to properly report ATV violations, and NEMONT supports illegal hunting, sums thing up pretty well. What I said had nothing to do with speed limits, or any other "traffic" related problem. I see illegal hunting in the same light as I see illegal ATV riding. Where are you at with all this MATTy\OAK?

 

[Nemont]

So, lets get this straight, for the record, IT can't be bothered to take the time to properly report ATV violations, and NEMONT supports illegal hunting, sums thing up pretty well. What I said had nothing to do with speed limits, or any other "traffic" related problem. I see illegal hunting in the same light as I see illegal ATV riding. Where are you at with all this MATTy\OAK?

TB,
You are going to have to quit taking so many hits off the Hookah. I never said I support illegal hunting and you know it and you are full of shit. I said illegal hunters don't destroy the habitat like illegal riders do. You state 1 in 10 hunters break the law. Any stats to back up that claim?

You may be an ethical rider on you ATV but the other, by your own admission, 10,000 illegal riders in Idaho destroy more hunting opportunities, habitat, stream beds, recreation opportunities and camping opportunities then all the illegal hunters in the U.S. combined. I can't help it if the CO2 from your tailpipe is trapped inside you helmet but the truth is you are on the wrong side on this issue. There are no ATV organizations which can or will police the growing number of illegal riders. You are the one who wants no more enforcement from LEO's because they may be overwork.

I tried to compromise on this issue but once I saw what happens with just one illegal rider who refused to acknowledge they are part of the problem I quit compromising. I want my kids to enjoy the outdoors without the blight of ATVer's.

So play semantics all you want but you know the areas ATVer's can ride in will be shrinking and the areas they ride in will become waste lands because your compatriots will not police themselves.

Nemont

 

[MattK]

TB- Ummm... I think I stand on the same side as Nemont...

Well written Nemont.

 

[Ten Bears]

But 1 in 10 hunters don't destroy habitat, cause erosion, ride in stream beds, pioneer new trails etc, etc. That is a pretty week stand there. That is like saying illegal riding is just a nuisance because 50% of all drivers disobey the speed limit. There is NO connection to ATV abuse of the land and hunters not wearing blaze orange or party hunting except when the Fat Asses road illegally out to where the illegal game is downed.

Nemont

I say party hunting is common and illegal. How many people do you know that kill game for their kin on the kins tag?
We don't have hunter orange laws yet, thank God.

TB,
You are going to have to quit taking so many hits off the Hookah. I never said I support illegal hunting and you know it and you are full of shit. I said illegal hunters don't destroy the habitat like illegal riders do. You state 1 in 10 hunters break the law. Any stats to back up that claim?

You may be an ethical rider on you ATV but the other, by your own admission, 10,000 illegal riders in Idaho destroy more hunting opportunities, habitat, stream beds, recreation opportunities and camping opportunities then all the illegal hunters in the U.S. combined. I can't help it if the CO2 from your tailpipe is trapped inside you helmet but the truth is you are on the wrong side on this issue. There are no ATV organizations which can or will police the growing number of illegal riders. You are the one who wants no more enforcement from LEO's because they may be overwork.

I tried to compromise on this issue but once I saw what happens with just one illegal rider who refused to acknowledge they are part of the problem I quit compromising. I want my kids to enjoy the outdoors without the blight of ATVer's.

So play semantics all you want but you know the areas ATVer's can ride in will be shrinking and the areas they ride in will become waste lands because your compatriots will not police themselves.

Nemont

10,000 is approximately 10%. Not a large number when compared to the whole, but problematic none the less. NEMONT, take my comments outta context if you'd like, but I don't see the need to add more work to an already overtaxed inforcement officer (that is what I said, twist it as you like).

I think that illegal hunters (you and MATTy both stand on that side of the fence, from your own admissions) are a greater problem to wildlife populations, then any LEGAL ATV riders. What's it like to take more then your limit, or to fill the tag of another?

I'll continue to watch for illegal/rogue ATV trails & riders where I hunt, and I'll still keep an eye out for poachers like you 2 as well (they pay rewards for guys like you). The best part about policing the area I hunt is that I have fewer people trying to hunt there illegally (illegal ATVing or poaching), and that amount to more game for me.

 

[Nemont]

I'll continue to watch for illegal/rogue ATV trails & riders where I hunt, and I'll still keep an eye out for poachers like you 2 as well (they pay rewards for guys like you). The best part about policing the area I hunt is that I have fewer people trying to hunt there illegally (illegal ATVing or poaching), and that amount to more game for me.

That makes you 1 out of 100,000 ATVer's in Idaho who will report illegal activity rather then participate in it.

I think that illegal hunters (you and MATTy both stand on that side of the fence, from your own admissions) are a greater problem to wildlife populations, then any LEGAL ATV riders. What's it like to take more then your limit, or to fill the tag of another

I wouldn't know how it feels to take more the my limit or fill a tag for someone else as I haven't done that. Again back off the Hookha and focus with what is being said. Show me where I said I support illegal hunting. You are the one twisting. You provided the number of 10,000 illegal riders, tell me where you got your 1 in 10 hunters are acting illegally. In fact show me data that says only 10% of ATVer's ride illegally because around here it is more like 75%. I have stopped and turned in illegal riders. You know what they said when I confronted them? "They believe it is all family fun to ride their ATV's where ever they please".

TB,
You are on the wrong side of the issue. The majority of thePublic doesn't like seeing there favorite places ruined by ATV riders. Tell me which ATV organization is doing anything meaningful to address the problem. NONE are because their members are the ones who are riding illegally.

I think if you change the water in the Hookha things may clear up for you.

Nemont

 

[1_pointer]

I think that illegal hunters (you and MATTy both stand on that side of the fence, from your own admissions) are a greater problem to wildlife populations, then any LEGAL ATV riders. What's it like to take more then your limit, or to fill the tag of another?

I disagree. Loss of amount and quality of habitat (which can be and is caused by illegal/unethical ATV use) has shown to be a bigger culprit in diminishing game populations that hunting, even with illegally killed animals accounted for. Sure if 10 someones poaches a deer in one year, that population is 10 less. But, if good habitat is present, they can be replaced in a year or two. If 10 illegal ATV riders reduce the productivity of winter range there are fewer deer that can be fed for multiple years in the future. Given that in the West, much of the winter range is on arid/semi-arid ecosystems, that damage may take 40-50yrs to replace. Illegal ATV use destroys habitat and lowers its productivity. Can't have animals without habitat.

 

[Ten Bears]

1-P, I disagree with your assessment.

Loss of amount and quality of habitat (which can be and is caused by illegal/unethical ATV use)

But can also be caused by many other sources as well. I believe DROUGHT has bee a bigger culprit in southern idaho where I hunt then anything.

has shown to be a bigger culprit in diminishing game populations that hunting, even with illegally killed animals accounted for.

Do you have a means for counting all the illegal animals? I don't believe much winter range is bothered at all where I hunt. Most of the ATV traffic is confined to roads or trails. I have no experience in your flatlands (or NEMONTs). Those are issues both of you fail to recognize (your flatlander existence isn't the center of the universe). That would be why you will come here to hunt. I have never claimed you don't have ATV problems. I have however questioned removing legal riders from legal areas (whether you see it as ethical or not).

NEMONT, you stated "There is NO connection to ATV abuse of the land and hunters not wearing blaze orange or party hunting..." Which I take to mean you draw exception to ATV abuse, but are will to overlook the lack of hunter orange or cases of party hunting (and MATTy sided with you). As far as 1 out of 10 hunters breaks hunting laws, ask a local game cop how many do.

 

[Nemont]

Those are issues both of you fail to recognize (your flatlander existence isn't the center of the universe). That would be why you will come here to hunt.

TB,
I have no need to go anywhere else to hunt. I have the largests single block of public land, in the lower 48, 15 minutes from my front door. It is being destroyed by illegal use of ATV's period. It has been grazed by cattle for over 100 years and the cattle have not ruined 1% of ATVer's have ruined in just a few short years. Also it shows your ignorance about topography to say I live in the "Flatlands". There is no way to allow legal ATV access to an area out in the Missouri Breaks or on the Prarie where idiot illegal riders don't ruin the area, period.

You keep bringing up the 10% of all hunters are doing illegally and saying that is the same percentage for ATVer's, "only" 10% ride in areas never meant for an ATV. I said there is no connection between the two issues they are seperate and unrelated. Multiply the 10,000 illegal riders just Idaho times all the western states and what number do you arrive at. Let's see WA, CA., OR., ID, MT, UT, NM, WY,AZ,NV and CO. Let just say the average number of ATV's is 100,000 ATV's in each state and 10% ride illegally that is 110,000 riders tearing up a public asset at will. That doesn't even include the combined impact of the other 990,000 riders riding legally.

Nemont

 

[Ten Bears]

Editted for corrections

 

[Ten Bears]

TB,
I have no need to go anywhere else to hunt. I have the largets single block of public land, in the lower 48, 15 minutes from my front door. (Then help police it) It is being destroyed by illegal use of ATV's period. It has been grazed by cattle for over 100 years and the cattle (I'm glad to hear that) have not ruined 1% of ATVer's have ruined in just a few short years. Also it shows your ignorance about topography to say I live in the "Flatlands" (I know the topography there, I love the country in the summer, but don't care much for the winters) . There is no way to allow legal ATV access to an area out in the Missouri Breaks or on the Prarie where idiot illegal riders don't ruin the area, period.

You keep bringing up the 10% of all hunters are doing illegally and saying that is the same percentage for ATVer's, "only" 10% ride in areas never meant for an ATV. I said there is no connection between the two issues they are seperate and unrelated. Multiply the 10,000 illegal riders just Idaho times all the western states and what number do you arrive at. Let's see WA, CA., OR., ID, MT, UT, NM, WY,AZ,NV and CO. Let just say the average number of ATV's is 100,000 ATV's in each state and 10% ride illegally that is 110,000 riders tearing up a public asset at will. That doesn't even include the combined impact of the other 990,000 riders riding legally.

Nemont

I'm not going to dipute your math NEMONT (except the part where you state the other 990,000 ride illegally as well). The point I dispute is creating more "closed areas" without proper inforcement. 90% of ATV riders becaome alienated, and the problem riders still ride. Does any of that make sense to you. If hunting was closed, poachers are still going to poach, understand that?

 

[ringer]

Drugs are illegal and we spend billions each year to enforce those laws therefore there is not a drug problem in the U.S. People who break the law don't care about the laws or your opinions. Criminals don't give a crap about gun laws. The only way to curb abuse in this area is to punish the violators to the max. Outlawing use in more areas will just give the lawbreakers more areas to choose from where little or no enforcement is possible. JMO.