Day hike gone bad
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mightyhunter
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Ben Lamb,
The Crow Creek fire was just north of the east entrance to YNP. It is a tributary that dumps into the North Fork of the Shoshone behind Pahaska Tepee. It runs parallel to the East Entrance road .YNP said let it burn and it was a roaring fire by the time it got to USFS land. I will defer to your knowledge of white bark pine. I just know that when it burns, the new trees don't produce nuts for a long time. That is a lot of burned acres of white bark pine all disappearing within a 10 year period. Just my thoughts but surely not based on science but my own logic.
I still believe that you remember incorrectly about the incident out of Cooke City last year. I recall reading numerous articles debunking the baiting bears BS. It was my understanding that this sow and her entourage of cubs had shown for the first time on the night of this incident. The only truth I heard about baiting involved the fact they baited the bear trap with the deceased fellow's tent and gear to capture this bear. The cubs went to the Billings Zoo, and are off to a zoo in SLC after a brief stay back east.
Again, I have never seen a bear fishing in Wyoming. I I would love to see a study on the subject. A photo of a griz grabbing a cutt would also be interesting to see. I have seen numerous spawning streams on the east side of Yellowstone Lake and most are all silted up. The trout need gravel. I still don't buy the lake trout showed up in the 80's. I think it was long before that. Without beating a dead horse, how does a deep water fish like the lake trout eat a shallow water fish like the cutthroat. I remember catching the cutts from the bank at Yellowstone Lake in shallow water. Again, we will just have to agree to disagree.
My feeling is simple on the grizzly bear.
First, try and determine how many actually exist. Is it 300, 600 or 3,000? I don't see how a decision on management can be made until determining the number. DNA hair testing seems the best way to make the count.
Second, if there are too many, move them elsewhere or reduce the numbers through hunting. Moving them around like a pinball solely within the recovery zone makes zero sense. Constantly drugging and trapping them for study makes even less sense.
Third, delisting them is something that likely should have happened years ago. Unfortunately, politics and fundraising and eco-elite propaganda often makes common sense go out the window on this subject. Filing lawsuits under the ESA with help from the EAJA has made environmental litigation a cottage industry for lawyers. Perhaps, only more and more deaths and maulings will take place before a change comes.
Unless it is attacking me, I personally have no desire to kill another bear. I doubt I would put in for a tag if hunts were to take place.
I don't see Clark as great habitat for elk, bears or sheep. The elk have only shown up in the last 10 years. My guess, is they feel safer down low when the wolves are up high. There is considerable winter range south of the Clarks Fork on Bald Ridge. Clark is kind of a lowland desert. Whitetail deer, speed goats and a few spindly horned mule deer call it home. Even the coyotes are kind of skinny in this area.
Again, it is great to disagree without being disagreeable. If you are ever over this way, look me up and we can go for a hike. I am old and fat so a charging griz will likely get me first if we go out.
The Crow Creek fire was just north of the east entrance to YNP. It is a tributary that dumps into the North Fork of the Shoshone behind Pahaska Tepee. It runs parallel to the East Entrance road .YNP said let it burn and it was a roaring fire by the time it got to USFS land. I will defer to your knowledge of white bark pine. I just know that when it burns, the new trees don't produce nuts for a long time. That is a lot of burned acres of white bark pine all disappearing within a 10 year period. Just my thoughts but surely not based on science but my own logic.
I still believe that you remember incorrectly about the incident out of Cooke City last year. I recall reading numerous articles debunking the baiting bears BS. It was my understanding that this sow and her entourage of cubs had shown for the first time on the night of this incident. The only truth I heard about baiting involved the fact they baited the bear trap with the deceased fellow's tent and gear to capture this bear. The cubs went to the Billings Zoo, and are off to a zoo in SLC after a brief stay back east.
Again, I have never seen a bear fishing in Wyoming. I I would love to see a study on the subject. A photo of a griz grabbing a cutt would also be interesting to see. I have seen numerous spawning streams on the east side of Yellowstone Lake and most are all silted up. The trout need gravel. I still don't buy the lake trout showed up in the 80's. I think it was long before that. Without beating a dead horse, how does a deep water fish like the lake trout eat a shallow water fish like the cutthroat. I remember catching the cutts from the bank at Yellowstone Lake in shallow water. Again, we will just have to agree to disagree.
My feeling is simple on the grizzly bear.
First, try and determine how many actually exist. Is it 300, 600 or 3,000? I don't see how a decision on management can be made until determining the number. DNA hair testing seems the best way to make the count.
Second, if there are too many, move them elsewhere or reduce the numbers through hunting. Moving them around like a pinball solely within the recovery zone makes zero sense. Constantly drugging and trapping them for study makes even less sense.
Third, delisting them is something that likely should have happened years ago. Unfortunately, politics and fundraising and eco-elite propaganda often makes common sense go out the window on this subject. Filing lawsuits under the ESA with help from the EAJA has made environmental litigation a cottage industry for lawyers. Perhaps, only more and more deaths and maulings will take place before a change comes.
Unless it is attacking me, I personally have no desire to kill another bear. I doubt I would put in for a tag if hunts were to take place.
I don't see Clark as great habitat for elk, bears or sheep. The elk have only shown up in the last 10 years. My guess, is they feel safer down low when the wolves are up high. There is considerable winter range south of the Clarks Fork on Bald Ridge. Clark is kind of a lowland desert. Whitetail deer, speed goats and a few spindly horned mule deer call it home. Even the coyotes are kind of skinny in this area.
Again, it is great to disagree without being disagreeable. If you are ever over this way, look me up and we can go for a hike. I am old and fat so a charging griz will likely get me first if we go out.
Changing numbers of spawning cutthroat trout in
tributary streams of Yellowstone Lake and estimates of
grizzly bears visiting streams from DNA
This is a decent document that talks about percieved impacts to grizz from declining cutthroat populations. Here's the abstract:
tributary streams of Yellowstone Lake and estimates of
grizzly bears visiting streams from DNA
This is a decent document that talks about percieved impacts to grizz from declining cutthroat populations. Here's the abstract:
Rather than go through your entire post, I'll just say that, like wolves, I think we're about 95% on the same page. Not a lot to disagree with.
I could be very well wrong about the baiting issue w/ the Slough Campground incident.
Clark has been historic bighorn sheep wintering grounds for as long as I can remember. It's also within the PCA for Grizz, and has always been a part of the recovery area due to the spring vegation and feed sources there for post-hibernation bears, IIRC.
Remember, what we have known for the last 100 years is much different than what the instincts of the critters are. Because there were no grizz there in 1970, doesn't mean they weren't there in 1910, etc. Same goes for elk, and all other species.
Cheers, and I'll send a PM the next time I head to Cody. Would love to grab a cup of coffee and meet face to face.
I could be very well wrong about the baiting issue w/ the Slough Campground incident.
Clark has been historic bighorn sheep wintering grounds for as long as I can remember. It's also within the PCA for Grizz, and has always been a part of the recovery area due to the spring vegation and feed sources there for post-hibernation bears, IIRC.
Remember, what we have known for the last 100 years is much different than what the instincts of the critters are. Because there were no grizz there in 1970, doesn't mean they weren't there in 1910, etc. Same goes for elk, and all other species.
Cheers, and I'll send a PM the next time I head to Cody. Would love to grab a cup of coffee and meet face to face.
drahthaar
Active member
Jeezus, I agree with Bambistew, if you go in the woods, you might just die. Bears, bees, drown, fall, get an infection. Sick of someone always having to BLAME someone for everything. Oh, mighty is a loiya, now I get it, money to be made.
There are more bears than there has been in many years, there are more people using the forest and the national parks than ever before, doesn't take a @#$#%^#$% rocket scientist to figure out some of this is going to happen. Let it @#$%#$^#$% go.
There are more bears than there has been in many years, there are more people using the forest and the national parks than ever before, doesn't take a @#$#%^#$% rocket scientist to figure out some of this is going to happen. Let it @#$%#$^#$% go.
Carrion Carrier
Member
Give me a mauling over death by cancer any day. These animals make wilderness wild.
Last edited:
mdunc8
Well-known member
Go to www.google.com/scholar, type in grizzly, yellowstone cutthroat, or whatever other critter you're interested in, read the science for yourself, and make your own conclusions.
belly-deep
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mtlion
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Goldtip
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mightyhunter
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When I first posted on this subject, I was concerned that the powers that be were underplaying the situation with the grizzly bear. Since that time, I have read an article in the Billings Gazette with quotes from Kerry Gunther (NPS Biologist) and Dennis Bruscino (Wyoming G&F Bear Conflict Manager). Both want to spin this as a coincidence. That is fine, because their job is to push out good PR. I did wonder why Wyoming needs a bear conflict manager if there is no problem. But I digress.
I have no particular agenda against the grizzly bear. As I stated in an earlier post, I admire the fact that they have survived despite man's best attempts to eliminate them. I am not much into group think on why these incidents have increased. There are disagreements with regard to the decline in the Yellowstone Cutthroat, the decline in the white bark pine, drought, global warming, wolf impact etc. I have a tendency to take "established" science with a grain of salt. Perhaps, I rely too much on my own observations Perhaps, mt lion is right and I am full of s*** and he needs his hip boots. I would suggest that he look at the tributary streams running into Yellowstone Lake from the east side. They are all silted up. The let it burn policy is most obvious in these areas. I am also inherently distrustful of government's motives and actions in most cases.
I think that grizzly bear numbers are way up. Again, this is a personal observation based on my time spent in the backcountry surrounding YNP. If numbers are up, you have to look at what the system can support and still be compatible with recreational use by humans. Everytime a sow grizzly bear attacks a human, it seems we are told she was just defending her cubs. Is that always the case? That is kind of hard to say but it sure sounds better than the alternative. Most of the human conflict with grizzly bears in this area has involved sows and cubs. I give them the most latitude when hiking in the backcountry. I usually leave an area if I see fresh sow and cub grizzly sign. I remember a hike up Blackwater a few years ago, where a buddy and I cleared out of two drainages because we believed that there were at least three different sows with cubs working the area. I haven't been back since. The boars do not worry me as much. Just my observations.
Do I hike in the backcountry? All the time.
Do I often do that hiking in the dark with headlamps? All the time.
Do I pack meat out on my back? All the time.
Do I go in without something to protect myself? No way.
Do I believe that having something to protect myself is going to save me from a bear incident? No way.
Do I camp much in the backcountry? Only if I feel safe in the location based on my observations.
Do I leave quarters or a whole animal on the ground overnight? No way.
Do I watch my back all the time when out in bear country and never let my guard down? Yes
Do I get nervous when I walk through thick white bark or lodgepole pine forest or creek bottoms? Yes
Do I think that the general public that recreates in grizzly bear country fully appreciates the danger? No
Do I think the government is at fault for not making the public aware of the risk? No
I don't want to keep beating this subject to death. However, I don't believe that 3 deaths and numerous maulings is mere coincidence. I predict more trouble this summer and fall. I hope I am wrong. I sincerely hope that I am not one of the statistics and will do everything in my power to make sure that this doesn't happen.
I have no particular agenda against the grizzly bear. As I stated in an earlier post, I admire the fact that they have survived despite man's best attempts to eliminate them. I am not much into group think on why these incidents have increased. There are disagreements with regard to the decline in the Yellowstone Cutthroat, the decline in the white bark pine, drought, global warming, wolf impact etc. I have a tendency to take "established" science with a grain of salt. Perhaps, I rely too much on my own observations Perhaps, mt lion is right and I am full of s*** and he needs his hip boots. I would suggest that he look at the tributary streams running into Yellowstone Lake from the east side. They are all silted up. The let it burn policy is most obvious in these areas. I am also inherently distrustful of government's motives and actions in most cases.
I think that grizzly bear numbers are way up. Again, this is a personal observation based on my time spent in the backcountry surrounding YNP. If numbers are up, you have to look at what the system can support and still be compatible with recreational use by humans. Everytime a sow grizzly bear attacks a human, it seems we are told she was just defending her cubs. Is that always the case? That is kind of hard to say but it sure sounds better than the alternative. Most of the human conflict with grizzly bears in this area has involved sows and cubs. I give them the most latitude when hiking in the backcountry. I usually leave an area if I see fresh sow and cub grizzly sign. I remember a hike up Blackwater a few years ago, where a buddy and I cleared out of two drainages because we believed that there were at least three different sows with cubs working the area. I haven't been back since. The boars do not worry me as much. Just my observations.
Do I hike in the backcountry? All the time.
Do I often do that hiking in the dark with headlamps? All the time.
Do I pack meat out on my back? All the time.
Do I go in without something to protect myself? No way.
Do I believe that having something to protect myself is going to save me from a bear incident? No way.
Do I camp much in the backcountry? Only if I feel safe in the location based on my observations.
Do I leave quarters or a whole animal on the ground overnight? No way.
Do I watch my back all the time when out in bear country and never let my guard down? Yes
Do I get nervous when I walk through thick white bark or lodgepole pine forest or creek bottoms? Yes
Do I think that the general public that recreates in grizzly bear country fully appreciates the danger? No
Do I think the government is at fault for not making the public aware of the risk? No
I don't want to keep beating this subject to death. However, I don't believe that 3 deaths and numerous maulings is mere coincidence. I predict more trouble this summer and fall. I hope I am wrong. I sincerely hope that I am not one of the statistics and will do everything in my power to make sure that this doesn't happen.
cityhunter
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OK guys explain this one last year i hunted unit 50 Wy archery elk , One late morning i had a bull screaming from his bed , so i gave some serious cow calls i set my friend up about 70 yards to my right,, Within a few minutes i heard a twig snap behind me , HMMMMM im saying sat bull coming in the back trai,
Then i hear what sounds like a horse running Hmmm maybe the sat bull is runnin in i stand to see and i see this thing coming at me thru the sage Hmmm not an elk hmmm looks like a wolf NO its a grizz at this point we lock eyes , he sees me clear as day in one swift motion I reach for my bow Yes bow
arrow gets hung up on sage ,, the bear comes running broadside at about 10 yards or less .I start screaming, BEAR BEAR , he rund past me and kind of strange his tail is like tucked between his legs and he running looking over his shoulder , almost like a scared dog , i ran towards his direction to show him he best keep running ,,
Ok so explain what happened also note the wind was in the bears favor blowing right at him plus we just walked that path only minutes ago
My theory was he thought at first i was a cow elk , then after he smelt me he didnt care i was a human i guess i shocked him when i stood up But he was coming and fast at me ,
Louis
Then i hear what sounds like a horse running Hmmm maybe the sat bull is runnin in i stand to see and i see this thing coming at me thru the sage Hmmm not an elk hmmm looks like a wolf NO its a grizz at this point we lock eyes , he sees me clear as day in one swift motion I reach for my bow Yes bow
arrow gets hung up on sage ,, the bear comes running broadside at about 10 yards or less .I start screaming, BEAR BEAR , he rund past me and kind of strange his tail is like tucked between his legs and he running looking over his shoulder , almost like a scared dog , i ran towards his direction to show him he best keep running ,,
Ok so explain what happened also note the wind was in the bears favor blowing right at him plus we just walked that path only minutes ago
My theory was he thought at first i was a cow elk , then after he smelt me he didnt care i was a human i guess i shocked him when i stood up But he was coming and fast at me ,
Louis
Explain what?? You were elk hunting, hammering on a cow call and saw a bear.
I'm surprised that you're surprised.
cityhunter
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the bears are out of control
mightyhunter
New member
icb 12,
I had a buddy from Idaho come to NW Wyoming to do some mule deer hunting. I told him to be mindful of the grizzly bears. He told me he had hunted extensively in Alaska and wasn't afraid of grizzly bears. In the first hour of the first morning of the hunt (Windy Mountain in the Sunlight Basin) he had a grizzly bear charge him.
He seemed surprised and said "Good grief" when he spoke to me.
I had a buddy from Idaho come to NW Wyoming to do some mule deer hunting. I told him to be mindful of the grizzly bears. He told me he had hunted extensively in Alaska and wasn't afraid of grizzly bears. In the first hour of the first morning of the hunt (Windy Mountain in the Sunlight Basin) he had a grizzly bear charge him.
He seemed surprised and said "Good grief" when he spoke to me.
cityhunter
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Ok Please expalin this one , last year i hunted unit 50 clarks fork area , archery
While in this area lots of grizz sign.
One late morning i had a bull screaming , i set up my friend to my right 60 yards,
I beagan cow calling, a few minutes goes by and i hear a stick snap Hmmm must be a sat bull coming in from behind us ,, I also say dam the wind is blowing right to him .
A few minutes goes by , then i hear what i think is a large elk running in , i can still hear them feet pounding the ground, I stand at this moment turn to look , HMMMM dont look like an elk HMMMMM maybe a wolf , it was cuttin a path thru the sage , right for me ,HMMMM Grizzz holy cow we lock eyes , i turn and grab for my bow , yes bow arrow got hung up on some sage,
The grizz runs by me broadside at just yards , I m screaming bear bear to inform my friend , As the bear runs off his tail is tucked between his legs and i can still see him looking back at me as he runs off . I ran towards him as to say you best keep running .
What i find strange is the bear came in with the wind in his favor , he had to smell me .
Also we just walked all over this area just minutes before .
I did have bear spray but i didnt think about it , If a sidearm was on me this bear would have been shot at . But I guess its best that neither me or the bear lost any blood .
Talk to some of the locals in this area and it seems they all have have had a encounter with a grizz .
My fear is once i get a kill on the ground . louis.
While in this area lots of grizz sign.
One late morning i had a bull screaming , i set up my friend to my right 60 yards,
I beagan cow calling, a few minutes goes by and i hear a stick snap Hmmm must be a sat bull coming in from behind us ,, I also say dam the wind is blowing right to him .
A few minutes goes by , then i hear what i think is a large elk running in , i can still hear them feet pounding the ground, I stand at this moment turn to look , HMMMM dont look like an elk HMMMMM maybe a wolf , it was cuttin a path thru the sage , right for me ,HMMMM Grizzz holy cow we lock eyes , i turn and grab for my bow , yes bow arrow got hung up on some sage,
The grizz runs by me broadside at just yards , I m screaming bear bear to inform my friend , As the bear runs off his tail is tucked between his legs and i can still see him looking back at me as he runs off . I ran towards him as to say you best keep running .
What i find strange is the bear came in with the wind in his favor , he had to smell me .
Also we just walked all over this area just minutes before .
I did have bear spray but i didnt think about it , If a sidearm was on me this bear would have been shot at . But I guess its best that neither me or the bear lost any blood .
Talk to some of the locals in this area and it seems they all have have had a encounter with a grizz .
My fear is once i get a kill on the ground . louis.
mightyhunter
New member
louis,
You are talking to one of the locals in the area. I live in Clark. Did you know that they trapped and relocated three grizzly bears out of the Clark dump last year? They have been trying to catch a fourth bear that is hanging around a friend's house down on the sagebrush flats. Encounters with grizzly bears in this part of Wyoming are becoming common place.
Icb 12 is just trying to pull your chain. The bear numbers are up and the food source is dwindling. A big problem is starting to emerge. Some folks think it is no big deal and others are concerned. Sounds like you were paying attention and it may have prevented an attack. As an archery hunter in Wyoming, you are now allowed to carry a firearm. I do think if you use a cow call or a bugle in this area, this will likely happen again.
You are talking to one of the locals in the area. I live in Clark. Did you know that they trapped and relocated three grizzly bears out of the Clark dump last year? They have been trying to catch a fourth bear that is hanging around a friend's house down on the sagebrush flats. Encounters with grizzly bears in this part of Wyoming are becoming common place.
Icb 12 is just trying to pull your chain. The bear numbers are up and the food source is dwindling. A big problem is starting to emerge. Some folks think it is no big deal and others are concerned. Sounds like you were paying attention and it may have prevented an attack. As an archery hunter in Wyoming, you are now allowed to carry a firearm. I do think if you use a cow call or a bugle in this area, this will likely happen again.
Lawnboy
Well-known member
Here's a pretty interesting stat on fatal bear attacks in North America. My brother in Alaska always comments on how we in the lower states seem to have more fatalities. It looks like he is right as far as in the years 2000 + but Alaska has had plenty in the decades prior. Don't know if it is due to numbers of people or what. Looks like Black Bears are also the one's to really watch out for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
I've read a lot of stuff over the last year or two. Seems like the wolves are out of control, now the bears are out of control, hell the mountain lions are out of control too.
Personally: I think the humans are out of control.
BTW: This doesn't mean diddly, but FWIW. I've been a part of 2 DLP kills, and personally maced 3 other bears. Only one was brown. From my experiences; I'll take mace over lead, and neither over common sense and awareness.
Personally: I think the humans are out of control.
BTW: This doesn't mean diddly, but FWIW. I've been a part of 2 DLP kills, and personally maced 3 other bears. Only one was brown. From my experiences; I'll take mace over lead, and neither over common sense and awareness.
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