Wolves are killing all the elk?

Ithaca 37

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I can't understand why elk harvest numbers are staying steady when wolves are wiping out all the elk herds. Can any of the anti-wolf nuts explain it?

"Here's one wolf mystery that needs to be solved: Just what are wolves doing to Idaho big-game herds?

Hunters and wolf advocates can argue the point until the cow elk come home and only further fuel the controversy surrounding the wolf.

A Department of Fish and Game study into big-game deaths will help get beyond the anecdotes and the animosity.

This will be the biggest big-game monitoring project in Fish and Game's history: attaching radio collars on 600 female deer and elk to figure out what's killing them.

The answers won't come cheap — Fish and Game has about $675,000 earmarked for the work, including about $200,000 from the federal government. But the answers will be extremely valuable.

A lot of things can kill a deer or an elk: disease, rough winters, and predators including cougars, bears and coyotes. And wolves. What the state must quantify is how much effect the wolf is having on big game.

The current numbers can be massaged for either view you embrace.

The Idaho wolf population has mushroomed since the mid-1990s, when the federal government released 35 wolves in Idaho. Today the wolf population exceeds 400. You cannot introduce a top-of-the-food-chain predator in those numbers without affecting the animals it eats.

Yet hunters aren't getting skunked. Elk harvest numbers dropped in 1998, but that was the result of tighter state regulations, not wolves. Numbers have remained steady ever since; hunters are killing more than 18,000 elk a year, several times more elk than the wolves take.
So the claim that wolves are decimating big game appears far-fetched. But that doesn't mean the wolves are having no effect on elk; the radio collaring project will help measure that.

The result could be darkly called "applied research": The collaring project may gather research that would allow Fish and Game to make its case for federal permission to shoot wolves.

That case must be airtight, and the feds must insist on seeing the goods. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will allow wolf kills when big-game numbers "are not meeting state management goals and are unlikely to rebound because of excessive wolf predation without agency intervention."

That's a mouthful, but each clause matters. It should not be easy for states to kill federally protected wolves. States need to prove their big game are in trouble because of wolves. Wolves should not bear the blame for hard winters or habitat problems. If hunters are spotting and killing fewer elk, the state must prove the wolves are the principal problem.

Mystique and mistrust surround the wolf. The animal's advocates and critics dislike and distrust each other and are often skeptical of the agencies that manage wolves. If states or the feds decide to kill wolves — or let them live — they'll need good science on their side. The Fish and Game study represents an important step in that direction."

http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050228/NEWS0501/502280303/1052/NEWS05
 
IT, what are the calf-cow counts in Yellowstone? What were they before the wolves? According to the biologist at the breakfast on Saturday (I didn't see any HuntTalk hats there), our elk populations are driven by our winters. If we have a hard winter, we will lose a lot of elk, and with the wolves on top of that, we will have a hard time recovering. Right now we have had mild winters since 1997, and have had above average calf-cow numbers each spring.
 
This one?
I can't understand why elk harvest numbers are staying steady when wolves are wiping out all the elk herds. Can any of the anti-wolf nuts explain it?
I don't consider myself to one of the antiwolf nuts, but rather a pro-wolf hunting advocate. Try this for an answer:
....our elk populations are driven by our winters. If we have a hard winter, we will lose a lot of elk, and with the wolves on top of that, we will have a hard time recovering. Right now we have had mild winters since 1997, and have had above average calf-cow numbers each spring.
Now I have to give the biologist credit. He did say many times that he can only speak for the panhandle region, and his work does not always explain what is going on in other regions.
 
On the news last night (I haven't read todays paper) they said the elk harvest in the Gardiner area is up from last year. Part of the story said people who thought wolves have desimated the elk populations are having a tough time explaining the 52% success rate on elk in that area.
 
What has been the trend of elk harvasts in the Gardiner area? Wasn't the harvast down the previous year, or was that another area?
 
MattK, do you think a winter range hunt success rate is a good way to rate the overall status of an elk herd? There's enough elk on the winter range for hunters to easily kill, elderly bulls cows mostly. Over 80% of the calves are taken by predators by the end of each summer.

The bureaucracy with the wolve re-introduction, drawn out by wolf-hugger types and their lawyers is taking a toll on that herd. But hey, state-wide elk numbers are great. Where in MT do you live?

Boot camp still would be good for you.. I loved it, a great time.
 
Greenhorn- I don't think it is a good way but if I'm not mistaken, you were complaining about the elk hunt around the Yellowstone area. Something about how the numbers were way down. I believe the numbers are down but couldn't it be the numbers are just not over inflated by the protection of Yellowstone? It seems to me they are more in balance with the Yellowstone Habitat or should there be 21,000 elk in that area? Is that a sustainable herd for that type of area?
 
Greenhorn, "The bureaucracy with the wolve re-introduction, drawn out by wolf-hugger types and their lawyers is taking a toll on that herd."

Sorry, but I have to point out that the most immediate obstacle to managing (shooting) wolves is the state of Wyoming's refusal to submit an acceptable management plan. I wouldn't blame that on "wolf-hugger types and their lawyers". I'd blame it on the ranchers and farmers in Wyoming that control the Wyoming legislature.

Personally, I'm very anxious for wolf hunting season to start, and I wish the state of WY would quit holding up the process just so they can make their little anti-Federal gummint statement.
 
Lets see here, we have fewer elk overall, and higher elk harvast by hunters on the winter range? And some here thinktha's a good thing?
 
Matt, the numbers are down, but I think my complaints were about was the lost hunting opportunity due to wolves, refering to greater yellowstone area elk and moose permits since wolf reintroduction. Seems like you're missing my point on the herd being out of whack with respect to age balance. I could be wrong, but it probably makes it pretty vulnerable to sudden death. Moose have already fell into the predator pit. Matt have you spent any time hunting near Gardiner?

Ithaca, blame aside, there's way too much red tape, and we'll see where it ends up. I'm not too optimistic for the Yellowstone elk herd. Hunters won't be shooting wolves for many years. Care to make a bet?
 
Get real IT.

Did you hear about the "biologist" that wants to expand a no hunting or trapping zone around Denali Park in Alaska because a guy caught one $*)Q!#@$ wolf in his trap next to but outside of the Park this winter. Anyone have a link to this A. P. story? Anyone that thinks we will get to hunt wolves (legally) here is looney.
 
Greenhorn, I'm afraid you're correct about hunters not being able to shoot wolves for many years. That's why I'm anxious to get this process started again and overcome the most immediate obstacle (Wyoming), then we'll deal with the next one. I'm hoping the FWS realizes how important it is to retain any credibility their agency has by moving the process forward as fast as possible. They were given a good opportunity on this wolf issue to show how credible they can be. They should make sure they don't blow it. That would be one of my main concerns if I were a FWS employee. I do know that is a concern of many in the agency.
 
Greenhorn- I don't think wolves will be hunted in the near future. I also don't think that there will be fewer wolves in the near future. That brings up a large dilemna in management. The elk herd in Yellowstone has been inflated due to lack of predation for many years. I guess in the present, the fish and game will have to reduce tag numbers in that area for cows/ calves and possibly implement a drawing on bull tags also (for the entire season). That is if they are worried about the elk herd. Moose the same thing must happen. In the future, I would hope the politicians can see fit to have a sustainable hunting season on wolves, reducing their numbers. Again, I feel hunters are a part of game management but the fish and game should do what is best for wildlife and habitat not what is best for people. Their loyalty should begin with "fish and game".
 
MattK: the resident expert on wildlife mgt in the greater yellowstone area

Matt? Where have you been for the last 10 years? Moose permits are down to less than 10% of what they were a decade ago. Was the moose population over-inflated too?

What's your philosophy on a drawing for bull tags near Gardiner in the general seaosn? Who would apply for a permit like that?

You should seriously hire your consulting services to the MT FWP.

3rd time, have you ever hunted near Gardiner or within 30 miles of the park?

I put this on here before, but I'll do it again.. should better illustrate why I'm complaining.

1995 Unit 310 20 moose permits
2004 Unit 310 1 moose permit

1995 Unit 307 5 moose permits
2004 Unit 307 1 moose permit

Late season elk hunting opportunites on the upper Gallatin:
1995: 610 elk permits and unlimited late season archery permits
2005: NONE

Late season upper Yellowstone elk hunting opportunites:
1995: 4265 elk permits
2005: 148 elk permits
 
Greenhorn- I am well aware of the Moose permit situation, since the number of permits I tried to get in that general area went from 5 to none.

You were concerned on the make up of the elk herd in the Yellowstone area. If necessary, it may have to go to more limited cow/calf tags and restrictions on the bulls killed in that area. I can guarantee the wolves will not go away so there better be a management program in progress before elk numbers get too low. Otherwise there will be no elk hunting in that area. Being proactive is better than waiting (like the MTFWP did with the moose hunting.)

You and I can bang a drum all day to get rid of the wolves, it isn't going to happen. As a footnote, I wasn't impressed with the wolves when I saw them in Lamar Valley.

I haven't hunted in the Gardiner area.
 
Matt, how did the MT FWP wait on addressing moose predation issues?

Limiting the genral hunt when the success is very low already will have a non-existant impact. A real bad winter on the other hand, could whack all the grandma & grandpa elk hard.

By the way I'm not banging a drum. Got to admit I'm tired of all the wolf-loving crap that gets posted to stir the pot. Since I live and hunt around here, I get sucked in every time.
 
Greenhorn- then I guess limiting the late hunt will have to be done. If there is a high success rate at that time the numbers have to be limited even more.

All I'm saying is the wolves are not going to go away. The Fish and Game should keep "fish and game" in mind when they set quotas and if necessary drop the quotas to none. In the case of Moose they did just that in some of the areas (mine in particular). They did go from 5 to none in one year which tells me either a lot were killed by wolves or they had the quotas too high for too many years.

Without getting rid of wolves (since both you and I agree that won't happen), what is your solution? Keep shooting the shit out of the elk until there are none and then say "I told you so."
 
Matt ... |oo

Keep shooting the shit out of them?? Solutions are to kill predators or stop hunting elk. Not rocket science, my 4yr old could probably figure that out.

Are you happy to see the quota adjustments I listed above? It sure is nice to see wolves harvest the elk instead of hunters in such a controlled way. At balance with nature just like the Defenders of Wildlife would like it.
 
Greenhorn,

Should all predators of Elk be wiped out? You good with killing all the bears, lions, and 'yotes in order to have more chances at shooting Elk with no natural fear of predators???

Sounds about as sporting as hunting in Texas....
 
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