Townsend Elk Slaughter II

RobG said:
Come on Ben, you are getting ridiculous. I suspect the law doesn't require antlerless hunting with a general tag, but if it does that would obviously have to be changed instead of FWP going rogue. I was thinking of something like the controlled hunts of years past where cow tags were issued by district, perhaps with restrictions on which dates they could be used. The hunt would continue through February if the goal was to reduce herd size. That is entirely within the possible.
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I'm not being ridiculous, I'm being real. If you think the last two sessions were bad, wait until the gavel falls on the 64th.

This is exactly what the Senate President and the Chairman of Senate Fish & Game will come at us with.
 
Ben Lamb said:
So your idea is to restrict access to tags, which would put FWP in direct violation of their legislative mandate to manage wildlife "at or below" objective?

That would be illegal and would be challenged in court and be used to further weaken the agency at the legislature, no?
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Ben,

Re-read my solution, it would not be a violation of anything in statute.

The MTFWP has the legal authority to issue permits that are only valid in a portion of a hunting unit or private land. They also have the authority via the EMP to not include harbored elk when considering quotas.

By issuing very few cow tags valid for public land, the shoot-outs go away. It also puts the issue back on the landowners if they feel the need to keep wildlife "at or below" objectives. If they want elk numbers decreased, here's a list of private land tag holders. Use it or shut up about it.

Elk need to be actively managed in 2 categories (and the EMP already allows for it), those elk that use/live on public lands, and those that are harbored...management options and tag allocations should reflect same

Hunters need to push back and put the ball back in the LO's and Outfitters court. Give them all the tools they need to help with the "problem"...let them decide if they want to be part of the solution or continue to be part of the problem.

Put some responsibility back on the LO's and OF and quit blaming hunters for the situation they and their legislature have created.
 
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So we have had similar things take place here in the Root. Even had some this year.

The areas of concern (private farm lands and ranch lands) changed to a new hunting district. The original HD was sectioned off and made smaller. The mostly private lower lands went to a HD were there is no either sex hunting. It's all antlerless.

Here's what the new area went too. There was lots of landowner bitching about elk and deer. This area was the worst in the state for landowner complaints even though there's not many elk.

-- HD 262 Bitterroot Farmlands--
NOTE: New hunting district. Private land - access may be diffi cult.
General Deer License.
• Sept 06 - Oct 19 - Either-sex White-tailed Deer. Archery Only Season.
• Oct 25 - Nov 30 - Either-sex White-tailed Deer.
Deer Permit. Drawing only. Apply by March 15.
261-50: 25 permits. Permit must be used with a valid General Deer License.
Valid in HD 261 and HD 262. Holders may not hunt Antlered Buck Mule
Deer in any other HD.
• Sept 06 - Oct 19 - Antlered Buck Mule Deer. Archery Only Season.
• Oct 25 - Nov 30 - Antlered Buck Mule Deer.
Deer B License. Drawing only. Apply by June 2.
262-00: 100 B Licenses.
• Aug 15 - Sep 5 - Antlerless Mule Deer. ArchEquip, shotgun, traditional handgun,
muzzleloader, or crossbow only.
• Sep 6 - Oct 24 - Antlerless Mule Deer. Archery Only Season.
• Oct 25 - Nov 30 - Antlerless Mule Deer.
• Dec 01 - Jan 01 - Antlerless Mule Deer. ArchEquip, shotgun, traditional handgun,
muzzleloader, or crossbow only.
Deer B License. Purchase beginning August 4.
262-01: ArchEquip only. Up to three 262-01 Antlerless White-tailed Deer B
Licenses per hunter.
• Aug 15- Jan 01 - Antlerless White-tailed Deer. ArchEquip Only.
262-02: ArchEquip, shotgun, traditional handgun, muzzleloader, or crossbow
only. One 262-02 Antlerless White-tailed Deer B License per hunter.
• Aug 15- Sept 05 - Antlerless White-tailed Deer.
• Oct 25 - Jan 01 - Antlerless White-tailed Deer.
General Elk License.
• Oct 25 - Nov 30 - Antlerless Elk. Only youth ages 12-15.
Elk B License. Drawing only. Apply by June 2.
262-01: 150 B Licenses. Successful hunters must report their harvested elk
within 72 hours by calling 406-363-7177.
• Aug 15 - Sep 05 - Antlerless Elk. ArchEquip, shotgun, traditional handgun,
muzzleloader, or crossbow only.
• Sep 06 - Oct 24 - Antlerless Elk. Archery Only Season.
• Oct 25 - Nov 30 - Antlerless Elk.
• Dec 01 - Jan 15 - Antlerless Elk. ArchEquip, shotgun, traditional handgun,
muzzleloader, or crossbow only.

There was still a complaint of bad behavior.

It's gotten complicated hasn't it.
 
Ben Lamb said:
I'm not being ridiculous, I'm being real. If you think the last two sessions were bad, wait until the gavel falls on the 64th.

This is exactly what the Senate President and the Chairman of Senate Fish & Game will come at us with.
Click to expand...
Ben you haven't proposed anything that will work under any circumstances. But, I'll bite, what is the "this" you refer to.
 
BuzzH said:
Ben,


By issuing very few cow tags valid for public land, the shoot-outs go away. It also puts the issue back on the landowners if they feel the need to keep wildlife "at or below" objectives. If they want elk numbers decreased, here's a list of private land tag holders. Use it or shut up about it.

Elk need to be actively managed in 2 categories (and the EMP already allows for it), those elk that use/live on public lands, and those that are harbored...management options and tag allocations should reflect same

Hunters need to push back and put the ball back in the LO's and Outfitters court. Give them all the tools they need to help with the "problem"...let them decide if they want to be part of the solution or continue to be part of the problem.

Put some responsibility back on the LO's and OF and quit blaming hunters for the situation they and their legislature have created.
Click to expand...

While I'm all for what you and Rob are proposing, I think it backfires politically. Look at how many sessions we've had to fight against the Legislature setting seasons in the Missouri River Breaks and the bundled districts (3, with this one being #4).

Given the make up of our legislature, do you believe that this action would go unpunished? BTW - 104 bill draft requests are in and the session hasn't started yet.
 
RobG said:
Ben you haven't proposed anything that will work under any circumstances. But, I'll bite, what is the "this" you refer to.
Click to expand...

I'm supporting increased fines as a way to deter the behavior, and I'm supporting better funding to increase warden presence and I'm waiting on language related to increasing funding for block management to help ensure we continue to have a robust and growing program. Apologies if that's not clear. I'm also supportive of moving to an HD and season like Buzz & Shoots point out, but I'm also understanding that this kind of action has an unequal and opposite reaction when the people who were elected by their constituents come in to town for the next 5 months.

Those things work. Establishing new HD's, etc work, but it still creates bad blood and conflict politics.
 
Ben Lamb said:
I'm supporting increased fines as a way to deter the behavior, and I'm supporting better funding to increase warden presence and I'm waiting on language related to increasing funding for block management to help ensure we continue to have a robust and growing program. Apologies if that's not clear. I'm also supportive of moving to an HD and season like Buzz & Shoots point out, but I'm also understanding that this kind of action has an unequal and opposite reaction when the people who were elected by their constituents come in to town for the next 5 months.

Those things work. Establishing new HD's, etc work, but it still creates bad blood and conflict politics.
Click to expand...

Your ideas are clear Ben, and those are good things to push for in general, but those ideas won't solve the problem because the jist of the hunters are behaving unethically, not illegally.

You have to start with an idea that has a chance of solving the problem. If Buzz and/or my proposed solution causes political kickback then you have to put it back in the Legislature's laps, but at least we are starting with something is a possible solution.

Maybe the Legislature wants these shootouts, it wouldn't surprise me, but supporting increased fines simply makes it appear that something meaningful is being done when it is not.
 
Ben Lamb said:
While I'm all for what you and Rob are proposing, I think it backfires politically. Look at how many sessions we've had to fight against the Legislature setting seasons in the Missouri River Breaks and the bundled districts (3, with this one being #4).

Given the make up of our legislature, do you believe that this action would go unpunished? BTW - 104 bill draft requests are in and the session hasn't started yet.
Click to expand...

"Well, I guess we can all just keep kicking the can down the road"...I remember hearing that from some dude named Ben Lamb once.:)
 
Funny that the state is 9 GWs short and will lose 3 more to retirement in a couple weeks and yet one had time on "Wardens" to sit with binoculars for 30+ minutes and then take more time to go down and give the MN brothers a ticket for not tagging a bull "immediately" even though it had been tagged before he got there. With things like that getting highly publicized, they may not get a lot of backing from the public to increase their ranks!!!
 
Broz's opening post linked to by RobG above"

Just sick of it....... Graphic photo.

This is one of those vent threads.... So let me say I am sorry going in. But I live where there are many weak minded road hunters , with no morals, that pursue elk with trucks. Run them to each other, block them from crossing roads where they could escape, push, attempt to make them cross public lands where they can herd shoot them. This morning I watched 2 guys in a truck, block the herd from crossing a road, spook them then hurry down to where they could walk in and blast at them. 8 shots fired. 3 cow elk wounded, one bull down. One cow with a broken rear left leg, one with a way back gut shot and another with a hit that looks to be to the lower jaw and she didn't close her mouth at all after. Now get this, these 2 guys had zero, none, no B tags (cow elk). The 3 cows hit were the result of poor shooting into the herd. After the smoke cleared I was able to find a 12 yr old girl that is a first year hunter and took her in and she took the cow with the broken leg. The other two wounded cows finally made it up to timber after the game warden stopped traffic for them to cross. I sit here thinking of that gut shot cow and worse the cow with the broken jaw. How slow is death with only a broken jaw? This crap goes on all the time here. I am growing very tired of it.

This picture is graphic. But here is the tired herd that has been run and not allowed to cross roads with two of the wounded cows as they finally came to cross after fish and game helped.

I took these pics from a long ways back through my spotter.

All this when some elite magazines, and groups choose precision distance hunters to pick on. I think they need to first learn what is really going on before they start to pick and choose who is ethical and what is fair chase."




Another post from Jeff B on another board:

"I feel I owe you guys a explanation. I will do my best to keep it short and to the point. I want to Thank all of You for your very kind words and support. My job at G/T ranch is not easy at times, but there are plenty of good times too. In the past we have had HUGE problems with trespassing and poaching. When I took on the job I knew it would not be easy. But we set a plan and we are sticking to it. First stage of the plan was to simply stop as much illegal activity as possible. The first year we prosecuted about 12 violators. Last year only a few and this year none. We vowed to work hand in hand with FWP to stop any illegal activity taking place in these elk hazings and herd shoots as well as some other things here that need tending to. This year I installed all new locks on the gates to the ranch, one of the first keys given out was to FWP officer Justin Feddis. Not something I would do if I was breaking laws myself, nuff said. I could go through and offer explanations to each accusation against me, but lets just say they ranged from bold faced lies to huge exaggerations.

Another phase of the plan was to do Anything we can to help or assist the real hunters in this area. And I do! We have never refused access for a hunter to retrieve wounded game on this ranch. I tell everyone just call me or come to the house and I will take you in to get your game. But come get me first. Then we take my truck and I help them field dress, drag and haul it out to their truck. This includes even using our private ranch lands to go back miles to retrieve game they shoot on public lands. The ranch has public lands on many sides of it. If they shoot an elk 3 miles in and I can help them bring it out easier through the ranch all they need to do is call or come get me. I hauled out at least 6 animals this way this season.

Next phase we implemented a few years ago is to offer hunting on the G/T Ranch to a limited number of public hunters. We mainly choose elderly hunters or young hunters and do this the last week or two of the season. This year I took in 6 hunters that met this criteria and they all got an elk. I either field dressed the game for them or helped. I dragged, loaded and brought them and their game out and loaded it in their trucks. Next year we hope to do more of these hunts if I am able to keep up. This does not include the times I see game wounded in some of the road hunting shoot outs that go onto G/T lands. In those cases I find someone, usually a young hunter, and take them and who ever is with them in to harvest wounded game. Several each year. That's what we do.

The combat injured soldier hunt was AWESOME!!! It was made possible by donations from hunters, my high school class of 77 and local people from Broadwater co. The donations paid all of the soldiers expenses including expensive non-res tags. We even had a little left over we gave him in cash for fuel to get home. Also one person from G/T ranch bought him a Kestrel 3500 as a gift. G/T Ranch, or myself received zero dollars for anything. We simply wanted to say Thank You to this brave young man and we hope someday to do another hunt like this. Another member of this forum videoed this entire hunt and I will share the video with you all when it is completed. It should be very cool as he had up to 3 cameras running at times and we were solid deep into elk.

I don't know where all this controversy is headed. But I hope when the smoke clears we have helped to limit illegal activities, give the elk a fare shake and help the real hunters that share the same passion for animals and hunting that we do.

Again.... THANK YOU all for your kind words and support. You can't imagine what it means to me right now.

Jeff "
 
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Wow, he took in 6 hunters over the last two weeks. He is surely doing his part to make it accessible to the public. :rolleyes: Sorry, after reading Jeff's own side including his physical altercations it is hard for me to think his personality is helping the situation.
 
There is a citizens advisory council meeting tonight focusing on this topic at FWP headquarters in Bozeman tonight.

*Please see attached release regarding the upcoming regional Citizens’ Advisory Committee meeting and the associated agenda.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Andrea Jones, 406-994-6931

FEBRUARY 23, 2015

REGION 3 CITIZENS’ ADVISORY COMMITTEE TO MEET THURSDAY EVENING

(Bozeman, MT)—Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks’ Region 3 Citizens’ Advisory Committee will meet in Bozeman on Thursday, Feb. 26 at the FWP Regional Office (1400 S. 19th Ave.) from 6 p.m. – 8:30 p.m.

The CAC meets quarterly to provide input and guidance on the many natural resource and management issues addressed by FWP in southwest Montana. All meetings are open to the public.

The CAC agreed at its December meeting to focus its efforts (at least in the short term) on a hunter ethics campaign. Therefore, the committee intends to use its time Thursday evening reporting on subcommittee work related to the campaign and discussing next steps in the process (i.e. funding and potential deliverables).

For more information about the Region 3 Citizens’ Advisory Committee, visit the FWP Web site at http://fwp.mt.gov/regions/r3/cac/.

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks ensures its meetings are fully accessible to persons with disabilities. To request special accommodations relative to a disability for this meeting, contact Andrea Jones at 406-994-6931.
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Just my humble opinion, but that campaign won't do a darned thing. A 40 year old guy isn't going to change because of a TV clip. And young hunters may learn the right way in Hunter Ed, but ultimately they will likely fall back on what example they see their family and friends set.
 
JLS said:
Just my humble opinion, but that campaign won't do a darned thing. A 40 year old guy isn't going to change because of a TV clip. And young hunters may learn the right way in Hunter Ed, but ultimately they will likely fall back on what example they see their family and friends set.
Click to expand...

I think it will help because a lot of people find themselves in those situations unexpectedly and just do what everyone else is doing. If you know what to expect in advance you can make better choices. There are also a lot of practical reason why you don't want to flock shoot that are obvious in hindsight... like how the hell are you going to find your elk if it doesn't drop immediately. You can't even take a followup shot because you aren't certain which one you hit. Just don't get yourself in that situation...
 
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