The verdict is in on Zinke

[Deleted member 20812]

Even using your numbers, aren't you comparing apples and oranges? Isn't the economy generated coming in private sector dollars? The expenditures in public(govt) dollars?

Yes, the economic benefit coming in is private sector dollars. Where do you think tax dollars come from? Private revenues maybe? What supports local economies? Private revenues maybe?

Think of it as an economic stimulus package that has incredible side benefits in terms of quality of life to the citizens of the U.S.

 

[Big Fin]

Ignoring the recreation economy in this discussion and implying it should be a sacrificial lamb is the classic example of Congress picking winners and losers, with the winners usually being those who have bought the most votes in Congress. There can be both; better yet, their needs to be both. Making this some sort of binary all one or all the other discussion is exactly where Congress and they folks who have paid for their vote is exactly where they want the discussion to go.

In many places I travel, the one industry that has been growing through the entire up and down ride of resource commodity markets has been the outdoor recreation component that is built around public lands. I need resources as much as the next person and I'm happy to pay for them, even if the true cost of providing me those resources results in a bit higher price, yet allows for other interests and values to be recognized.

 

[shoots-straight]

Zach, see it's only 1 letter different(boy I sound like Jose). Not a trumpster either, but IMHO he's a better choice than the other ticket put forth.

I first thought that Trump might be as good for our wild lands, but that's not the case. We won't have to deal with gun legislation with Trump but at the cost of much of what we have gained. BTW, I didn't say you were a Trumpster, just hanging out with them. In a boat, looking over classified land sales from public reserves.

 

[MTGomer]

With everything here I think we should cut or eliminate the mules at Danahar meadows could shit on golden carpets.
We have the money, we just piss it away overseas or in 'free things' that should be provided by the private sector.

 

[Hunts]

Bless you folks who argue ad naseum with the flat earthers. Not me.

Glad I found the "Ignore" feature on this site.

No more jwp58, zach, dukes daddy and sytes. Things are looking up.

 

[1_pointer]

So, if they were unfilled for a long time prior, did the freeze really have an effect in the last 5 months?

It did. Some offices and/or positions impacted more than others. A job offer was made to fill a position that it took more than a year to get approval for and through the system, but things were not signed prior to the freeze. Therefore the position and offer is now in limbo. IMO/E, some of the issues being bantered about on this thread are not the cause of the current or past administration alone. The current one could being doing and the former one could have done a better job...

 

[OriginalOscar]

With everything here I think we should cut or eliminate the mules at Danahar meadows could shit on golden carpets.
We have the money, we just piss it away overseas or in 'free things' that should be provided by the private sector.


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Again Gomer is wise. A huge chunk of federal services including public land management could and would be more efficient if ran by the private sector. Ya ever notice the government didn't have layoffs during the recession. Self importance to self serve!

 

[BuzzH]

Ya ever notice the government didn't have layoffs during the recession. Self importance to self serve!

You're full of shit...big-time. Why do you just make things up that you don't have a clue about?

As the VP of my local union, I had to participate in the process of "laying off" (permanently removing) a couple dozen employees during the recession. How many times have you had to look people in the eye and tell them they no longer have a position? I've done it too much and its no joke.

The FS has been downsizing since I started working for them in 1987, with a few small hiring blips along the way.

Rumor has it the USDA is about to lose another 5K employees...you going to blame that on a "recession"?

Time for you to wise up and quit spouting crap...you look like the fool you are.

 

[JDH]

It did. Some offices and/or positions impacted more than others. A job offer was made to fill a position that it took more than a year to get approval for and through the system, but things were not signed prior to the freeze. Therefore the position and offer is now in limbo.

This happened to a couple of people I know, so the freeze did have an effect.

 

[jlmatthew]

Ya ever notice the government didn't have layoffs during the recession. Self importance to self serve!

Seen plenty of positions cut at Peterson AFB. I'm a non-union DoD employee.

US Government sure could save a whole lot of money if we put a time limit on the safety net spending. Nobody should ever be on welfare for more than 60 months max, but they've turned it into a career for a lot of folks. DoD wastes plenty of money too. Should see the landscaping on Peterson AFB, its beautiful

 

[Tkaldahl2000]

A 2% tax on the 880 billion in outdoor recreation revenue would amount to 17.6 billion. Now I know that people are already being taxed on things like the income they earn, but how much does a person who brings in less than 35000 a year actually pay in income tax (not social security). How many corporations actually pay the published rates? Usually the little guys get punished the most by regulation, because the big guys write the regulation for the legislators (look up ALEC for example). When the Kochs and friends can raise 750 million to put toward elections, I have to wonder what their return on investment is. Over a 10 year period the five largest agribusinesses in the US received an obscene amount of subsidy under the farm bill. I am not going to cite a number because I don't remember the exact amount, but why do Bayer (Monsanto), Con Agra, Cargill, John Deere, and Caterpillar need money from the government to help them earn greater profits? We tout the benefits of free market solutions, and subsidize the hell out of the companies that make the biggest campaign contributions. The argument shouldn't be about capitalism or allegations of socialism, but in stomping out the greed and corruption that make both systems untenable. When I decided to be a math teacher instead of an electrical engineer I gave up at least 2 million in income over the 45 years that I expect to work. There is a shortage of math and science teachers, but when someone proposes that paying them more would help the problem everybody protests that teachers already get paid too much. What happened to free market solutions? People argue that CEOs deserve the big bucks because otherwise you won't be able to attract talent, and often when they fail they walk away with millions for leaving. I would propose to you that the candidates put forth by the parties in the last election are an indirect result of not valuing education enough to make sure we spend the money to hire the best and brightest. In my district we pay lip service to academics, but show our true colors when the star basketball player is ok to play and practice as long as he/she is not failing more than one class. Follow the money and you will see that congress is a wholly owned subsidiary of the American corporations.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Again Gomer is wise. A huge chunk of federal services including public land management could and would be more efficient if ran by the private sector. Ya ever notice the government didn't have layoffs during the recession. Self importance to self serve!

Private sector? As in for profit private property recreation areas, no thanks!

 

[Zach]

Bless you folks who argue ad naseum with the flat earthers. Not me.

Glad I found the "Ignore" feature on this site.

No more jwp58, zach, dukes daddy and sytes. Things are looking up.

Glad I could help you learn something...


I'll go back and re-read differing viewpoints and see if I agree or disagree.

 

[OriginalOscar]

As the VP of my local union, I had to participate in the process of "laying off" (permanently removing) a couple dozen employees during the recession. How many times have you had to look people in the eye and tell them they no longer have a position? I've done it too much and its no joke.

The FS has been downsizing since I started working for them in 1987, with a few small hiring blips along the way.

Rumor has it the USDA is about to lose another 5K employees...you going to blame that on a "recession"?

Government union leadership = Bureaucratic entitled myopic

Forest Service cuts would be right sizing the bloated agency. https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/forest-service

The Forest Service's legacy of poor management continues today. A 2003 report by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) concluded: "Historically, the Forest Service has not been able to provide Congress or the public with a clear understanding of what the Forest Service's 30,000 employees accomplish with the approximately $5 billion the agency receives each year. Since 1990, the GAO has reported seven times on performance accountability weaknesses at the Forest Service."10 The agency's financial operations were on the GAO's "high-risk" list for waste between 1999 and 2005.11

For the record airline hub director and unfortunately more hard layoffs and terminations than I'd like to remember. No government severance, retraining, transfers, or early outs; just gone! 9/11 world changed, 9/12 new reality, by 9/30 major amputation to save what we could. That was the worst one of many over the years.

Buzz, I'm sure your participation (sounds like you sat in as union) in a few reductions over 30 years was hard.

 

[grizzly_]

Bless you folks who argue ad naseum with the flat earthers. Not me.

Glad I found the "Ignore" feature on this site.

No more jwp58, zach, dukes daddy and sytes. Things are looking up.

Did you really just call somebody else a "flat earther" and then hide yourself from their point-of-view because it differs from your own?

Yikes! I'm glad you're so certain in your own beliefs that you don't even want to see anybody else's. Seems like a great path to self-improvement and wisdom.

 

[BuzzH]

Forest Service cuts would be right sizing the bloated agency. https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/forest-service

In a shock to absolutely nobody, you reference a libertarian flat-earth shill funded by the Koch Brothers.

The kool-ade in Utah must be stout. Did you get a good swig when O'Toole was milking the public education system as a traveling wind-bag at Utah State?

Laffin'....

 

[Hunts]

Did you really just call somebody else a "flat earther" and then hide yourself from their point-of-view because it differs from your own?

Yikes! I'm glad you're so certain in your own beliefs that you don't even want to see anybody else's. Seems like a great path to self-improvement and wisdom.

Nope. These folks are simply provocateurs. It make zero sense to read their posts. You either support the concept of public land or you don't. Not something up for debate for me. I actually spend much of my time devoted to self improvement and learning. I spend more time reading books than chatting on web forums. If you think these guys are spouting wisdom you need a dictionary and a 6th grade education.

 

[TRS_Montana]

Government union leadership = Bureaucratic entitled myopic

Forest Service cuts would be right sizing the bloated agency. https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/forest-service

Great use of the internet, here. We can all take a few notes on how to look up and cite rigorous, peer-reviewed research from dukes_daddy. I can tell just from the name of the website that the primary goal of this report is to provide unbiased results with no agenda.

I have worked with many FS employees who do fantastic research to help the scientific community better understand the role of headwater streams and vulnerable habitats in salmonid migration and spawning behavior. I'm a little less than shocked to find that the folks at "downsizinggovernment.org" didn't include mention that in their critique. Use that google machine of yours to find a report that contains some data and facts. It should be fairly easy since all of the research conducted by federal employees is required to have open access, and the data be freely available to the public (all paid for by that budget referenced in your excerpt).

I am not against accountability. I AM completely against building arguments on the unwavering foundation of ignorance.

 

[Irrelevant]

I get suckered into following these political threads everything. And everything I get worked up by some people comments. But last night while doing a training hike, and in between avoiding rattlesnakes, I contemplated why it feels like rational, reasonable people on here, have irrational illogical arguments to support bass-ackward beliefs (I will caveat that by saying I've never actually met any of you so you could all be bat $hit crazy for all I actually know). I came to the conclusion that it can't be facts that actually determine what people believe. It must be that their environment is filled with people (friends, family, coworkers) that have these sets of opinions and reason to support those opinions. Throughout the daily grind of life they've learned that these people are good, trust worthy, honest people and thus (consciously or subconsciously) conclude their opinions must follow suit, and are therefore adopted as there own. So then when those same people demonize other ideas or types of people, it doesn't matter what the facts are. Their life histories already weight those negative ideas more heavily, often too heavily to be countered. Meaning there's really little to no point in having a political discussion at all, a conclusion that not only has been expressed by others whom I respect, but also is just one of those over-arching social laws we're taught early in life, "Never talk religion or politics".

 

[Gr8bawana]

Great use of the internet, here. We can all take a few notes on how to look up and cite rigorous, peer-reviewed research from dukes_daddy. I can tell just from the name of the website that the primary goal of this report is to provide unbiased results with no agenda.
I am not against accountability. I AM completely against building arguments on the unwavering foundation of ignorance.

This is probably where dukes_daddy gets his truthful and unbiased information.