State of Idaho Neglecting Kids for the Benefit of Cows

[JoseCuervo]

Once again, the Republican Dominated State Land Board ignores the Constitution, and harms our State's Children, Deer, Elk, Salmon, and Taxpayers. Luckily for ALL Idahoans, Jon Marvel is winning EVERY lawsuit he files.

Group sues state over grazing lease
The Associated Press

BOISE -- An environmental group is claiming a state agency violated the law when it wrongly gave a grazing permit to a cattlemen's association.

Hailey-based Western Watersheds Project accuses the state in a lawsuit filed Friday of improperly awarding a grazing lease to the Lacey Meadows Grazing Association for a historic range that straddles the Lewis and Clark expedition's route to the Pacific Ocean.

Western Watersheds claims it should have been awarded the lease because it outbid Lacey Grazing $8,000 to $7,500 at an Aug. 22, 2000, lease auction. The Land Board awarded the 7-year lease on 16,300 acres to the cattlemen that December.

Western Watersheds appealed the decision, and a district court judge ruled in 2002 that the Land Board violated state law.

Judge Deborah Bail said Western Watersheds would improve the streams, increase the forage and reduce the impact of cattle on the state's young tree plantations there.

The law requires that in addition to the bidding amount, the Land Board must consider the management plans of the competing bidders and weigh which would provide the best maximum return on the land for its long-term earning power.

Bail ordered the case to be reviewed by the Land Board staff, which last month advised its board to continue the current lease with Lacey Meadows.

Rancher Paul Schroeder, who represents the association, did not return phone calls left Thursday by The Associated Press.

Western Watersheds Project, environmentalist Jon Marvel's group, has clashed with the state board in seven lawsuits as he seeks to buy up grazing leases so they can be taken out of production and left idle.

The group has won all the lawsuits, said Western Watersheds attorney Laird Lucas. The victories include four in the Idaho Supreme Court and three in state district courts.

Lacey Meadows is close to the spot where the Corps of Discovery first met the Nez Perce Tribe. The American Indians fed the explorers, gave them directions to the Pacific Ocean and cared for their horses in their absence.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Let's hear from the crowd that thinks Jon Marvel isn't a hero.

 

[Bambistew]

A Hero???

 

[pawclaws]

Could one of you guys file to become ElkGunner's guardian? I think the boy needs close supervision.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Yup, A hero. Jon has singlehandedly taken on the huge entrenched establishment of agricultural interests that have dominated Idaho politics (and other Western states) and is beating them every time. He is improving habitat for wildlife and at the same time, forcing the state and federal gummint to obey the law! He is educating everyone about how the welfare ranchers and State Land Board are cheating the schools out of additional funding. He's doin' a lot more, too, that will benefit all hunters and fishermen, but I don't have time to go into it all today. Take a look at his Western Watersheds website!

 

[Ten Bears]

So, what is Marvels grazing management plan? How is it if he offers more money for the lease, but doesn't graze it, making it better for everyone? Try this IT/EG: mow every other pass in your lawn, but leave strips of unmowed grass between them. As the summer progresses, continue to mow the same strips. Keep us updated (photos would be good) of the "healthy" unmowed strips.

 

[Nemont]

Once again, the Republican Dominated State Land Board ignores the Constitution, and harms our State's Children, Deer, Elk, Salmon, and Taxpayers. Luckily for ALL Idahoans, Jon Marvel is winning EVERY lawsuit he files.

I am curious EG how much of the tax payers money, time and resources the State of Idaho has spent on Attorney's defending the lawsuits that Jon Marvel has brought against it. Willing to bet that it is far more than they will ever recover from the leases that the WWP is bidding on.

I agree that if they bid more than the ranchers then fine they should get the grazing rights but to call Jon Marvel a champion of school children because he out bid a rancher by $500 while costing the State far more on the back end is BS. That $500 doesn't even cover the cost of a paralegal doing copying work. Frankly, school kids are never mention in any of his propaganda.

Why do you frame the arguement around "neglecting kids for the benefit of cows". If Jon Marvel were truly concerned about the kids he would stop having Idaho spend money on lawsuits and give that money to the school system.
No, he is concerned with ending public land grazing period, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter when, doesn't matter to him who he has to destroy to do it. That is his goal and it has nothing to do with school kids.

Explain to me how rule by lawsuit is a good thing or that it is to benefit the children of Idaho.

Ithaca, Which of these definitions fit Mr. Marvel? Perhaps Number 3 could apply but it would be more like the celebrity part of the definition. Curious how you think Jon Marvel is a hero. Passionate, yes, single minded, yes, some would say arrogant but hero doubt it.

he·ro ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hîr)
n. pl. he·roes
1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation

Nemont

 

[Bambistew]

Good post nemont

 

[Ithaca 37]

Nemont, I'd take definition # 2 or 3. They both fit.

As for taxpayer money spent defending against Marvel's suits, think of it this way; If the State Land Board wasn't breaking the law Marvel wouldn't have anything to sue them about. They can read the law and they know they're trying to defend a losing position when they go into court. So who's wasting the taxpayer money? In fact, who wasted the taxpayer's money on the lawsuits the State Land Board lost----the winner or loser?

Nemont, "If Jon Marvel were truly concerned about the kids he would stop having Idaho spend money on lawsuits and give that money to the school system."

You know better than that! Jon's trying to make sure the law is enforced and will benefit schools long after he's gone. And that's just one of the benefits of his lawsuits for the taxpayers of Idaho. True, his primary concern is ending the public land grazing subsidy program, or at least making sure the land is not degraded by grazing. All this has to do with law enforcement.

Maybe you and Bambi can explain why the current grazing and state and federal land use laws, rules and regulations should not be enforced. I'd love to hear it. I know it's a big issue, so if you want, it would be OK with me if you just limit it to explaining why any of the laws or regulations Marvel has brought lawsuits about should not be enforced.

 

[Nemont]

Ithaca,
Tell me where I said that anyone should not enforce grazing laws. My issue is the way EG and Jon Marvel are framing this issue. Tell me what it has to with school kids.

The WWP's bid on this lease was $500 more then the ranchers. Do you believe that $500 is going to make any difference to the school system?

Why doesn't he stick to his orginal statements that he wants to end public lands grazing and put the ranchers who have allotments out of business? It has nothing to do with school kids.

It is not politically popular in Idaho to spout off about ending grazing on public lands but if you can wrap yourself around school kids, well then your cause is justified, right. Who would be against school kids?

As for defining him as a hero that is your own definition. IMHO he is not a hero. I really don't see Definition #2 as being relevant. Unless you consider yelling profanity across meeting rooms and being a genuine asshole to be a feat of courage or a noble purpose.

Nemont

[ 05-24-2004, 15:31: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[Ithaca 37]

Nemont, "The WWP's bid on this lease was $500 more then the ranchers. Do you believe that $500 is going to make any difference to the school system? "

Why don't you ask a teacher who is using her own money to buy pencils and paper for the kids?

As you're probably aware, $500 on every state grazing lease every year would be significant. Even $200 on half of them would be significant. The state makes about $100,000 per year profit on their grazing leases (the way they figure it, which doesn't take into account lots of things which would actually show that they are losing money). See Marvel's website for more info.

"A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose,"

I'd say Marvel has a noble purpose------save the environment, save taxpayer money, provide more money for schools, see that laws are enforced, provide better habitat for wildlife, improve water quality, help private beef producers who are not subsidized by the taxpayers, promote free enterprise, etc.

"Why doesn't he stick to his orginal statements that he wants to end public lands grazing and put the ranchers who have allotments out of business?"

I suppose he's raising as many issues as possible in an effort to fully educate the public. I'm in favor of bringing out all the peripheral issues influenced by subsidized grazing----even anything in it's defense.

"Who would be against school kids?"

By their actions so far it looks like the State Land Board is against school kids and in favor of subsidizing ranchers at the expense of school kids.

===============================================

I'm very sorry, but I'm dealing with an upcoming deadline and don't have as much time as I'd like to post on this topic. I'll post as much as I can in the next few days.

 

[Bambistew]

Hey It, do you have any other web sites besides marvels to check out anti-public land grazing "stuff"? It just seems kind of redundant that the only place you can come up with any "facts" is off Marvels page(s). I'm not advocating welfare ranching, just want to know where you get all you knowlege? It seems to me that your opinion is exactly like his...

 

[Nemont]

Ithaca,
The beauty of America is that we all are entitled to our own ideas. I happen to think Mr. Marvel will end up not being a hero in most people eyes but rather an angry man who has a quick wit and acid tongue. A man driven by the same thing the ranchers are accused of, greed. Also if you think the WWP and Jon Marvel are stopping at public land just wait, the next target is private lands. Hope the succeeding genrations of idaho residents enjoy working in Sun Valley for the wealthy elite Mr. Marvel works with.

help private beef producers who are not subsidized by the taxpayers, promote free enterprise, etc.

Tell me where his stated goals includes the above mentioned. Go read his mission statement.

"Working to protect and restore Western watersheds by educational outreach, public policy initiatives, litigation , and by ending incompatible uses of public lands." web page

No mention of schools, private ranches, free enterprise, nada. His stated goal is this:

"Destabilize" the livestock industry to the point where ranchers get so mad and miserable that they quit the business

. Why anyone owning cattle would sit down with him is beyond me.

SIDEBAR - August 2, 1999
’Jon Marvel is the wing nut’
by Stephen Stuebner

Based in Emmett, Idaho, Brad Little is a third-generation sheep and cattle rancher. He has been active in range-reform efforts for more than a decade; this year, he joined the board of directors of High Country News. Recently, he talked about his neighbor Jon Marvel:

BRAD LITTLE: "Jon Marvel’s objective isn’t just to get ranchers off public lands. At the last Malheur Desert Conference (in Oregon) I asked him specifically about private-land ranching in the West, private-land ranching elsewhere in the United States, and in Brazil, Argentina and New Zealand. He said it was inconceivable that you could produce red meat off any land anywhere. That does give some purity to his vision, I guess.

"What do I think of him? Better Jon than someone more personable. Jon is going to irritate people so much, people may gravitate to our side.

"Michael Jackson of the Quincy Library Group says it’s the wing nuts on each side - the right wing and the left wing - that create the center. In 1978 and 1979, it was the Sagebrush Rebellion; in the 1990s, Jon Marvel is the wing nut.

"Most people I’m around, they think livestock grazing has a place out there. They just want to take care of the bad stuff. In a way, Jon may help. There may be some medium operators that may start doing more documentation and more monitoring to defend themselves, so their long-term longevity may be enhanced by Jon’s presence.

"I know it makes it easier for me to go out and spend the days I do monitoring if I know that I’m going to have an awful good defense if I get into court on the issues. Jon is a pretty good incentive from that standpoint. But he’s driving up the cost of administering public-land permits, and he’s accelerating what’s already happening: There’s people going out of business every day on public lands.

"Should Jon be able to bid on state lands? Oh, yeah. Leases should be reclassified so there’s a watershed lease or a recreation lease. Jon doesn’t want a grazing lease. Jon likes to find a state lease right in the middle of a grazing operation and cherry pick. Let’s give him some (leases) and see how smart he is. He’s got to maintain the fences, control the weeds; this isn’t a freebie.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> "I have heard that he’s called a "family-farm terrorist." Here’s a guy whose income comes from development in Sun Valley, where people don’t want any more development, and he’s going around picking on what should be sustainable agriculture

.


"I think in the long run, livestock still is the highest and best use for a lot of these lands in the West. Maybe at lower levels; maybe at different times; maybe different species.

"Ten years from now, people will say we had a pretty good deal with (people buying into) rangeland reform. But we had to give up some of the good stuff because Jon Marvel abused the system." web page
</font>[/QUOTE]

Over and over again, Jon Marvel has shown an arrogance and unwillingness to work proactively with federal and state land managers, as well as with the people who make up the communities of Idaho. He has made headlines throughout the state as he has contested the presence of cattle on the land.

He has bombarded government agencies with lawsuits and by so doing personally threatened the livelihoods of hundreds of people. He has bid on several state land leases-the land which provides funds for the school endowment. Claiming he is motivated by the welfare of the environment and our children, he has only made management of the land more difficult and administration of the leases more costly, thus depleting the funds available for education. It has been a thinly veiled attempt to move his anti-grazing campaign forward .

There is a moral to this story. It is the ranchers who truly care for the land and the kids. After all, it is their livelihood at stake and it is their children who attend the schools and it is their dollars that support the communities and infrastructure of Idaho.
web page

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

Be careful quoting articles written by Ted Hoffman, on a Hunting and Fishing Forum. Mr. Hoffman's perecieved goal has been to destabilize the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, and promote the killing of Idaho Big Game animals at will, with no respect to the laws of the State of Idaho, nor does he show any respect to the professionals who work in the Idaho Department of Fish and Game.

Our State Director of F&G quit his post out of disgust for the politics that Mr. Hoffman was trying to influence over his Department through the Governor's office.

But the Idaho Cattle Association’s president-elect, Ted Hoffman, pressured Sando to get the charges dropped. Director Sando refused, saying that would be "fixing a ticket." He stood on the principle it was up to the justice system to determine the outcome.

Link to Article About Hoffman's Behaviour toward Sando

 

[Nemont]

EG,
I didn't post that Ted Hoffman was a hero, I don't know him or support him, necessarily. My point in using quotes from that article was that ranchers have children also. Even ranchers with grazing allotments.

If you believe the goal of WWP is to fund schools then so be it. I just do not believe that funding schools is the true goal of Jon Marvel.

I have one question: Why is it acceptable to for Jon Marvel to act like a jerk to further his political goals but not Ted Hoffman? Just curious the double standard there.

Also was the commissioner more to blame?

The day Sando quit, Moulton led a majority of the commissioners to reopen the lion season in eastern Idaho and up the quota of female lions beyond the recommendation of the state’s biologists.

I don't know the particulars but it appears you may need new Fish and Game commissioners rather than a new pres. of the Idaho Cattle Association

Nemont

 

[Ithaca 37]

Moulton was such a lousy commissioner he wasn't re-appointed. That's rare.

Bambi, I've read every website I know of on the net that discusses public land grazing. How many have you read? We've been debating the topic here for years and I've been criticized for posting links to websites on grazing many times. Somebody finds something to criticize about any site I post. Funny thing is---nobody ever posts any websites that tell us what a great thing public land grazing is. Maybe there aren't any?!

I admit Marvel is a zealot and zealots tend to piss people off. He's an extremist, too, but he sure isn't anywhere near as extreme as Ted Hoffman and he's a lot more truthful than Ted, too.

 

[Nemont]

Ithaca,
I understand he is zealot and that he thinks he is right. It boils down to this, he goes beyond wanting to enforce the law. His stated goal is end grazing without regard to who he crushes in the process.

I understand that people who want grazing to end on public land would view Mr. Marvel as a hero. What everyone seems to understand that the people who a grazing these lands are going to dig in and fight back. Even if he wins every lawsuit now until he dies the grazers will continue to fight ending grazing, they have to.

My other point I want to make is that the people who oppose grazing on public land also oppose grazing on private land. So becareful who you annoint him the savior of our public lands because he may come after you next.

And I have not found anything in his mission statement, writings or interviews where he wants to support private land grazing. Supporting schools is a way to deflect critism from his goal of putting ranchers out of business.

Nemont

 

[1_pointer]

Luckily for ALL Idahoans, Jon Marvel is winning EVERY lawsuit he files.

Are you sure about that?? Do settlements count??

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I think you've written some great stuff here.

The reason I support Marvel is because for over 100 years grazing has went one way and always in support of the ranchers, even at the expense of sound science and the environment.

I think what needs to happen to get back in the middle on public lands grazing is for someone exactly like Marvel to force the agencies and lease holders to comply with the laws and the wording in their contracts.

You cant tell me that ranchers have not broken their lease agreements and compliance with laws for years and years. I know they have, I've seen it, and I suspect you have too.

I still believe that a reasonable compromise can be reached, but I also know that compromise in the past has not supported wildlife, fisheries, or the environment. Compromise has been a one way street for Ag, mining, timber, etc.

I realize and understand that proper grazing can improve the land, or at least not degrade it. The problem is, many areas are so hammered, applying the right type of grazing is still TOO much grazing to see a positive change.

I'm not anti-grazing, anti-logging, or even anti-mining...as long as its done with regard to wildlife, water, fish, and the environment.

As far as private property goes, I couldnt care less if someone wants to graze it to dirt...as long as it doesnt affect the public lands across the fence.

As far as this specific issue, the top bidder should get the lease, thats what the school trust lands are for...maximizing profits for schools.

Accepting a lease for $5 less is not in any way maximizing profits for schools...end of story.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by 1_pointer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Luckily for ALL Idahoans, Jon Marvel is winning EVERY lawsuit he files.

Are you sure about that?? Do settlements count?? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, as it refers to his lawsuits against the State Land Board....