MT Sheep Hunter Fined

[James Riley]

Anyone with half a brain can see that GH is messing with you. A little ribbing is not dishonorable. You're the quickest one on this forum to file a hurt feelers report. Lighten up.

Tell it to Joe.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I was not present as an eye-witness so what I am saying has a flavor of hearsay. With that said my take on the matter personally is...

1. Don Strine is a stand-up citizen, a fair and level-headed justice of the peace and avid sportsman. I have personally hunted with him and video'd his mountain goat hunt in 2012. (For which I received a great deal of accusation and slander against my character as an objective witness by a poacher's lawyer when I testified before Strine against a poacher that I video'd intentionally snagging fish at a kid's fishing derby.)

2. Statements given by the hunting partner were that the "accidental shooter" was going to hide the second ram and the ewe. Hunting partner convinced him to self-report.

3. Second ram was bigger than the first ram. Was it a case of mistaken identity? Non-target ram shot first and then the bigger ram stepped out? Buyer's remorse and devil on the shoulder prompts a terrible split second decision? I don't know, wasn't there for this hunt, but my wife had this exact tag in 2006. We had that exact temptation occur when she shot the second biggest ram out of a group of several rams and had to watch a ram that would have been a B&C contender walk out of our lives as she validated her tag on a ram ten inches smaller. They had the same coloration, same horn configuration but we couldn't see both of them when she shot. Did a similar occurence with a different outcome happen here? Pure speculation on my part, but I can easily see the scenario being spun as an honest mistake when excrement hit the fan.

Knowles Creek is very open country. Not heavily timbered, broken terrain, sheep are spotted from a mile away across the river and then you stalk the herd that contains the ram you want. Very little compelling reason in my mind given the open country, the nature of rutting sheep hanging around unspooked after a shot for a quick follow up shot without determining what happened the first shot. This isn't a bull elk running through thick timber that you only have seconds to shoot until he's gone forever.

I don't know if I think the penalty is too stiff or not, but restitution values are set by legislation and if it took that hunter 30 years to draw his tag, there's another hunter or two that's been applying for thirty years that will never get his tag because this guy killed another ram and a ewe that is probably pregnant.

In this case, I'll save my outrage against FWP and the judge. Tough lesson for sure if it was an honest mistake, but having hunted that unit with tag holders twice before, inexcusable, IMO.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

C'mon now people. . .

Scott Comey says it's not a crime if there is no intent to commit a crime if it involves top secret emails. Apply the same logic here and see that the glove doesn't fit so we must acquit.

Obviously the 2 Utes made an honest mistake. Everything that guy just said is bullshit. Thank you.
Is this story the truth? Well, you can't handle the truth.

Thanks to this post I discovered the law again. You actually made me think about it. I managed to get through three years of law school without doing that.

Ok i'm out of movie quotes but man it seems like poachers get off easier than this guy.

 

[dannyb278]

I find the argument that admitting your mistake should make for leniency doesn't hold a lot of water. Manning up also means manning up to the consequence of it.

It's also mind-boggling to me that two experienced Hunters failed to recognize that they were shooting at multiple animals with other non Target animals in close proximity as well. With two ill-advised shots this guy took out two trophy sheep and a ewe that could have produced more sheep to help sustain an already fragile population.

I mean, next to treating every gun like it's loaded, knowing your target is essentially the most important rule of firearm hunting.

This guy royally screwed the pooch on this one, and with Decades of hunting experience behind him should have known better. An expensive lesson.

 

[whiskeydog]

Poachers have gotten off with far lower fines. That doesn't mean this guys fine was too high...it means the poachers' fines are too low!

 

[belly-deep]

I find the argument that admitting your mistake should make for leniency doesn't hold a lot of water. Manning up also means manning up to the consequence of it.

It's also mind-boggling to me that two experienced Hunters failed to recognize that they were shooting at multiple animals with other non Target animals in close proximity as well. With two ill-advised shots this guy took out two trophy sheep and a ewe that could have produced more sheep to help sustain an already fragile population.

I mean, next to treating every gun like it's loaded, knowing your target is essentially the most important rule of firearm hunting.

This guy royally screwed the pooch on this one, and with Decades of hunting experience behind him should have known better. An expensive lesson.

Umm...

I wouldn't drop 30K to "man up"

The 4th Amendment gives you the right to remain silent. Nothing says you have to go professing your guilt to the F&G.

Also, multiple animals can get really confusing. You usually don't run across it with deer and elk because similar age class animal are not often found together. But sheep seem to be a different story. I'd say this story is much closer to accidentally drilling two cow elk or doe deer. IMO.

As far as firearm safety rules, I'm not sure that even applies here. But whatever.

Point being, I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt until I see differently.

The way you guys are going, they are going to have to start charging 30K to everyone who hits a sheep with their car too.

 

[James Riley]

You can SSS and probably get away with it. After all, the burden of proof is upon the State and it's a difficult burden (as it should be). However, two things should be kept in mind:

1. If you fail to fess up and get caught anyway, then your “innocent mistake” defense won't fly very well. You'll look like the criminal POS that you are. If I catch you doing this, hiding the evidence and failing to report, then you can bet I'll turn you in. It will really look bad if you take the highest scoring of the two rams and leave the other behind. In this case, apparently there was a companion that convinced the guy to fess up and had he not done so, then there may have been a witness against him and things probably would have gone much worse than they did.

The point here is that you may very well get WAY more of a fine and punishment than you would have had you just fessed up. It's a risk. It's your risk to take. Personally, I would never make the “mistake” this guy made but if I did, I'd fess up and take my medicine like an honorable man. And I would do it not because of a fear of greater precautions should I get caught, but because I would only view it as a legitimate mistake if I own up to it. If I fail to own up to it, it is no longer a mistake. But that's me.

2. Just because you get away with it does not mean you are not an incompetent “hunter” who shouldn't be in the field with a weapon. But getting away with it has always been enough solace for dishonorable people to sleep just fine at night. That's what makes them criminals without convictions. I was all about honoring this guy until I heard about the companion. Now I have to give credit to the companion. That takes no small amount of courage to convince a companion to turn himself in. I'm sure 99% would pal up and hide the evidence together.

 

[belly-deep]

The point here is that you may very well get WAY more of a fine and punishment than you would have had you just fessed up.

Really? What about the 30K?

Seriously, the moral of the story is don't fess up. If you cant see the effect this will have on the public then you are blind.

So in the exchange for the "cost" of this guys mistake, how many hunters will let a gut shot ram walk away because they are afraid of shooting two animals?

My guess is, the legislature changes the statute after this. Kind of like Top Goon's elk story.

 

[Schism]

Poachers have gotten off with far lower fines. That doesn't mean this guys fine was too high...it means the poachers' fines are too low!

I agree!

 

[The Hedgehog]

After reading Gerald's post it sounds like he may have got what he deserved. If it was truly accidental, as the article claimed, he got screwed. Can never believe what you read in a newspaper anyway.

 

[dannyb278]

Umm...

I wouldn't drop 30K to "man up"

The 4th Amendment gives you the right to remain silent. Nothing says you have to go professing your guilt to the F&G.

Also, multiple animals can get really confusing. You usually don't run across it with deer and elk because similar age class animal are not often found together. But sheep seem to be a different story. I'd say this story is much closer to accidentally drilling two cow elk or doe deer. IMO.

As far as firearm safety rules, I'm not sure that even applies here. But whatever.

Point being, I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt until I see differently.

The way you guys are going, they are going to have to start charging 30K to everyone who hits a sheep with their car too.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. Yes you have the right to remain silent, but my point (which I though was obvious) was that just because you come clean doesn't mean you don't face the consequences. Much like when my 6 year old admits to doing something wrong, she still gets punished.

and "As far as firearm safety rules, I'm not sure that even applies here. But whatever."

Seriously? Knowing your target doesn't apply here? If we ever meet in the field, I'll gladly walk in the opposite direction if you feel that not being 100% sure of your target before firing doesn't apply in a hunting situation.

 

[belly-deep]

and "As far as firearm safety rules, I'm not sure that even applies here. But whatever."

Seriously? Knowing your target doesn't apply here? If we ever meet in the field, I'll gladly walk in the opposite direction if you feel that not being 100% sure of your target before firing doesn't apply in a hunting situation.

For the sake of the hypothetical, let's assume it was an honest error.

Ok so he knew his target was a sheep. He was right. Assuming the ewe got hit by a pass through bullet, he probably didn't see her. So at the time, in his mind, he thought he knew his target and beyond.

I've alway taken that rule to mean don't go shooting at stuff on a skyline or check out to see if there's a building, etc behind your target.

When shooting at animals, you'll never know 100% what is near your target because you can't walk up there and check it out before you shoot. Monday morning quarterbacking this thing and saying that just because he shot the wrong sheep he was, by definition, breaking a safety rules is premature.

But please do walk the other direction if we meet in the field. I do enjoy hunting without other people around.

 

[Gr8bawana]

I was not present as an eye-witness so what I am saying has a flavor of hearsay. With that said my take on the matter personally is...

Remember that game we played when we were kids and we all sat in a circle and one kid said something to the one next to him and by the time it came back around it was nowhere near the original thing?

 

[James Riley]

Really? What about the 30K?

Seriously, the moral of the story is don't fess up. If you cant see the effect this will have on the public then you are blind.

So in the exchange for the "cost" of this guys mistake, how many hunters will let a gut shot ram walk away because they are afraid of shooting two animals?

My guess is, the legislature changes the statute after this. Kind of like Top Goon's elk story.

Pay the $30k. If you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime.

The moral of the story, for moral people, is to be more careful. The moral of the story for dishonorable people is to SSS.

So you see, next time a guy is in a similar situation he's supposed to think "Gee, maybe I better be a better hunter or not take the shot yet." That is how the punitive nature of penalties is supposed to work. Yes, there will be those for whom that doesn't work. But the judges need discretion for those types too. We call them "people who knew better."

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

The truth is probably a little different than the guy's story and any way you cut it this guy was an ass clown. Sad waste of sheep by these 2 Elmer Fudds. You would think that between the 2 of them they could've done a little better. I wouldn't want either one of these dim wits as a hunting partner. Now the damage is done and we get to MMQB it.

Makes me pretty irritated that we can't be harder on hardcore poachers.

 

[James Riley]

When shooting at animals, you'll never know 100% what is near your target because you can't walk up there and check it out before you shoot. Monday morning quarterbacking this thing and saying that just because he shot the wrong sheep he was, by definition, breaking a safety rules is premature.

You can know 100% what is near your target and you can walk (or run, or crawl, or set up an ambush and have them walk up to you) up there and check it out before you shoot. I've been doing it for 33 years. I bow hunt, I occasionally hunt black powder and I rarely hunt rifle, but when I do, I still keep it around 30 meters and I still spend time with the animal(s) before shooting. And you don't have to be that close or hunt like me to avoid the mistake this guy made. You just have to quit making the excuses for yourself that you are making for him.

But please do walk the other direction if we meet in the field. I do enjoy hunting without other people around.

I'll run. Especially if you look like that guy in your sig line.

 

[James Riley]

2. Statements given by the hunting partner were that the "accidental shooter" was going to hide the second ram and the ewe. Hunting partner convinced him to self-report.

If true, that hunting partner is a rare breed. I'd don't always hunt with other people, but when I do, I prefer people like him.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Say what you like innocent or guilty. The example is set and the word is out. I don't think many poachers are going to be messing around with sheep in Montana.
At the end of the day I bet this is effective the more controversial the better the news spreads.
Montana is the opposite of utah with its $$tag sheep poachers getting away with all they can.

 

[James Riley]

The truth is probably a little different than the guy's story and any way you cut it this guy was an ass clown. Sad waste of sheep by these 2 Elmer Fudds. You would think that between the 2 of them they could've done a little better. I wouldn't want either one of these dim wits as a hunting partner. Now the damage is done and we get to MMQB it.

Makes me pretty irritated that we can't be harder on hardcore poachers.

I guess I agree with you if the partner was glassing the whole incident and could have stopped his partner. However, from the "facts" as I've seen them here, he may not have been in a position to coach the shooter. But yeah, if he was watching the whole thing go down and didn't help is partner make the right decision before the mistake, then he's a duffus too. It's a little late after the fact. Thanks for the other angle.

 

[Tylerm]

Too bad he wasn't in Wyoming they just fined a guy $2100 for outright poaching a ram on the winter range, which is less than the non-resident tag costs.