MT FWP Tentative Season setting meetings

[BuzzH]

Buzz, you are WRONG. FWP DID do something this year. They extended the season for antlerless to February 15th and are now allocating 1000 elk b tags. At the end of the last FWP discussion around this plan I approached the regional wildlife biologist after the presentation and recommended just getting wildlife services involved with a helicopter to eliminate all of them. I doubt I'll be at any of the future meetings. Too frustrating.

Will say that particular unit has some huge private land complexities, and wolves that are very difficult to manage due to access.

Yeah, they also changed up some stuff where I like to hunt too.

I guess the low buck to doe ratio's can be improved by killing the crap out of doe whitetails with a 9 day doe season, combined with B-tags. Oh, and how does OTC region wide elk b-tags sound in a unit that's either at or just below objective? Granted, they're only valid on "private land"...as if that ever kept the six fingered banjo pickers from Seeley from killing them wherever they find one. Maybe now at least their kids may have a chance to do more than just tag a cow elk for Uncle Dad.

Its an epic display of wildlife removal...

 

[375H&H]

Yeah, they also changed up some stuff where I like to hunt too.

I guess the low buck to doe ratio's can be improved by killing the crap out of doe whitetails with a 9 day doe season, combined with B-tags. Oh, and how does OTC region wide elk b-tags sound in a unit that's either at or just below objective? Granted, they're only valid on "private land"...as if that ever kept the six fingered banjo pickers from Seeley from killing them wherever they find one. Maybe now at least their kids may have a chance to do more than just tag a cow elk for Uncle Dad.

Its an epic display of wildlife removal...

Buzz, honest question. If the public land hunting in Montana is so bad then why do you continue to go there? If I was an out of stater and the hunting was as bad as you say then I wouldn't go back.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, honest question. If the public land hunting in Montana is so bad then why do you continue to go there? If I was an out of stater and the hunting was as bad as you say then I wouldn't go back.

Its not an honest question, its a passive aggressive statement, thinly veiled as a question, but I'll answer it anyway.

1. I've been hunting the same country for going on 40 years in country where my Father has been hunting since 1957, and my Grandfather since the mid-40's. I have a tie to the land there, spending I couldn't tell you how much time there fishing, trapping, hunting, and otherwise prowling around. We owned a family cabin there from the mid-40's through the late 70's and why my family still has an attachment to the country. I can assure you, there is not anyone alive currently that knows that country better than myself and my immediate family, just a fact.

2. To be fair to myself and to make the comments I do, you cant do it by being a distant observer, but rather an active participant. Even though the hunting is a shadow of what it was, to continue to learn, you cant just toss in the towel and never go back. If your suggestions are to have any merit and you want to impact change, you have to provide proof. A reason why I have kept detailed journals since 1980 regarding what is going on there. Yes, they're primarily hunting/fishing/trapping journals...but a lot more than that. I pay attention to things other than what I can kill, predator tracks, upland bird sightings, rare bird sightings, forage use, leader growth on the plants, plant composition, habitat changes, and try to tie all that into the things that are changing around me. Unlike the FWP, I realized a longgg time ago that we don't live in a vacuum or time warp, things change around us.

3. I have family there that I enjoy getting out the woods with, even if the hunting is not close to what it used to be. I have 2 nephews that are old enough to hunt and have them down here to hunt whenever they can draw tags and time allows. Its much easier for me to go there with my flexible work schedule and 6-10 weeks of leave, than for them to come here.

4. Even though the hunting is bad, that country draws me back...I cant stay away and would be disappointed if I didn't spend time there each year. I'm largely hunting on the memories of what was, because I'm 100% convinced that it will never be that way again. The days of seeing 21 4x4 or better bucks by 1 PM, that aint happening without some serious management changes. Its tough for me to reconcile that, tough for me to accept that, considering the sacrifices that guys like my Dad and Grandfather made to leave the hunting better for me. I feel guilty for having enjoyed the good times, knowing that things in Montana are NOT better for my nephews...and again, if things don't change and soon, never will be. I would even argue that we're so far down the rabbit hole now, it will never happen, for sure not in my lifetime.

5. There's still a small part of me, hidden somewhere, that actually believes things could turn around. I want to believe that eventually, even the dimmest of dim bulbs will recognize that we pissed it away with "opportunity at all costs" and allowed the FWP to do it, without hardly a whimper...and only too eager to fill tags.

That's why I continue to hunt there, a long way of saying, "if you don't actively participate, you cant bitch"...and you certainly cant impact change without understanding of what's going on around you.

I know what I know...and I'm not forced to guess.

 

[375H&H]

Its not an honest question, its a passive aggressive statement, but I'll answer it anyway.

1. I've been hunting the same country for going on 40 years in country where my Father has been hunting since 1957, and my Grandfather since the mid-40's. I have a tie to the land there, spending I couldn't tell you how much time there fishing, trapping, hunting, and otherwise prowling around. We owned a family cabin there from the mid-40's through the late 70's and why my family still has an attachment to the country. I can assure you, there is not anyone alive currently that knows that country better than myself and my immediate family, just a fact.

2. To be fair to myself and to make the comments I do, you cant do it by being a distant observer, but rather an active participant. Even though the hunting is a shadow of what it was, to continue to learn, you cant just toss in the towel and never go back. If your suggestions are to have any merit and you want to impact change, you have to provide proof. A reason why I have kept detailed journals since 1980 regarding what is going on there. Yes, they're primarily hunting/fishing/trapping journals...but a lot more than that. I pay attention to things other than what I can kill, predator tracks, upland bird sightings, rare bird sightings, forage use, leader growth on the plants, plant composition, habitat changes, and try to tie all that into the things that are changing around me. Unlike the FWP, I realized a longgg time ago that we don't live in a vacuum or time warp, things change around us.

3. I have family there that I enjoy getting out the woods with, even if the hunting is not close to what it used to be. I have 2 nephews that are old enough to hunt and have them down here to hunt whenever they can draw tags and time allows. Its much easier for me to go there with my flexible work schedule and 6-10 weeks of leave, than for them to come here.

4. Even though the hunting is bad, that country draws me back...I cant stay away and would be disappointed if I didn't spend time there each year. I'm largely hunting on the memories of what was, because I'm 100% convinced that it will never be that way again. The days of seeing 21 4x4 or better bucks by 1 PM, that aint happening without some serious management changes. Its tough for me to reconcile that, tough for me to accept that, considering the sacrifices that guys like my Dad and Grandfather made to leave the hunting better for me. I feel guilty for having enjoyed the good times, knowing that things in Montana are NOT better for my nephews...and again, if things don't change and soon, never will be. I would even argue that we're so far down the rabbit hole now, it will never happen, for sure not in my lifetime.

5. There's still a small part of me, hidden somewhere, that actually believes things could turn around. I want to believe that eventually, even the dimmest of dim bulbs will recognize that we pissed it away with "opportunity at all costs" and allowed the FWP to do it, without hardly a whimper...and only too eager to fill tags.

That's why I continue to hunt there, a long way of saying, "if you don't actively participate, you cant bitch"...and you certainly cant impact change without understanding of what's going on around you.

I know what I know...and I'm not forced to guess.

Thank you Buzz, sounds like solid reasoning to me that makes sense. And for the record, it was an honest question.

 

[MTGomer]

I helped my mom take this buck in an unlimited permit area in western Montana on the 2nd to last day of the 2017 season. Great buck for the area no doubt. We are happy and thankful to have gotten him.

20, even 10 years ago we used to see multiple bucks like this and MUCH bigger every year. We would pass on bucks like this up until the end, knowing that getting one petty much whenever we wanted was doable.
I, nor my entire family that lives in and hunts, hikes and spends extensive amounts of time in the area haven’t seen a buck this big in atleast 4 years.

I like a lot of the ideas posted above. Doing something about all the OTC rifle mule deer rut hunting and stop pretending like elk are overpopulated would be a good start.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I don’t disagree with much of what Buzz wrote, other than being too far down the rabbit hole. Animals are amazingly resilient, unless you are referring to societal resistance to change. If that’s the case, I think you’re probably right. It’s going to take a lot of stones to kick over the apple cart of wildlife management paradigms in Montana.

 

[HighWildFree]

I'd think it'd be reasonable to go to a 4 week rifle and 5 week archery. Cut the first week off of each season. Even better would be to split the season: 9 weeks on public/bma, long private land season. But the 11 week season is archaic in my opinion.

I think MT is burying their head in the sand. I certainly don't know the numbers but there's way more hunters, hunting way more places, hunting further and harder than there were 20-30 years ago. I know in the last 5 years, I'm seeing way more bowhunting camps.

The world is changing and Montana is too.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I'd think it'd be reasonable to go to a 4 week rifle and 5 week archery. Cut the first week off of each season. Even better would be to split the season: 9 weeks on public/bma, long private land season. But the 11 week season is archaic in my opinion.

Nice to see that some would really be willing to make a big sacrifice..

 

[375H&H]

Nice to see that some would really be willing to make a big sacrifice..

No chit. I would pay to have a 4 week rifle season where I hunt in Wyoming.

 

[Eric Albus]

greenhorn, you admitting that I am 5-10 years ahead of you on the curve?

All kidding aside, unless we(the hunting community) band together and find a common theme, backed by a common sense voice, we will see nothing change.

To whomever asked about the outfitting community being on board with changes, can't answer for all of them, but the ones I know are all in favor of some kind of change. We realize things can't stay the same, and to blanket manage a state as large and diverse as Montana with a general season "one size fits all" sort of mentality is insane. If I managed my cattle/farming the way a rancher/famer in SW Mt does I would have been broke and out of business years ago.

 

[mtmuley]

For those in the know... Would a pick your weapon rule do anything positive? If not in a stand alone regulation, but coupled with shorter seasons also? mtmuley

 

[The Hedgehog]

greenhorn, you admitting that I am 5-10 years ahead of you on the curve?

Although unlikely, it could be true.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

For those in the know... Would a pick your weapon rule do anything positive? If not in a stand alone regulation, but coupled with shorter seasons also? mtmuley

Yes and no. I’ll elaborate more later when I’m done tearing shit out and clean up my mess.

 

[Pagosa]

For those in the know... Would a pick your weapon rule do anything positive? If not in a stand alone regulation, but coupled with shorter seasons also? mtmuley

I would be a 100% for this. Great idea, combined with a split shorter rifle season. Example like 2 10 day periods. I never manage to get out rifle elk-deer hunting more than 6-7 days due to work demands, and family commitments.

When I first moved from Colorado in 2013 I was completely disgusted with the CDOW for their short seasons, high-hunter pressure, and falling to the demands of large landowners/guides (Bray, Redds, etc). I thought the idea of 5 weeks of rifle season in Montana and 6 weeks of bow/arrow season would be a dream come true. Little did I know that continued heavy archery pressure for the 6 week period, and only a three day break between seasons, and the heavy hunting pressure most everywhere within 1-3 miles of the roads forced elk into heavy timbered areas and/or private after the first few hours of season. Western Montana contains large areas of timbered remote areas and private land that they can escape the hunters.

In my personally opinion; I think the long season only increases elk impacts to private land, lowers hunter success on public lands, and forces elk to move at night, in the timber, and in remote areas with minimal openings. I believe the wolves also force elk into the timber, and once they complete the tracking part of their hunt the wolves hunt most effectively in opens areas where they can see each other and push the elk into pinch points. Colorado DOW started using the combined separate season in the 80's, I believe to spread out the hunter pressure and increase harvest. Nobody, needs to hunt for 5 weeks to be able to kill a deer/elk.

Another point I want to make and I know this sounds racist, but these indians hunting year-around because of some b.s. agreement in the 1880's is crazy. Let them go get high and poach on the reservations. They are taking a lot of moose, mule deer, elk, bighorn, etc that aren't theirs. They lost the war, and sold a majority of their land and the govt. took away the other part. They need to get over it and go get a job. Indians growing up in Oklahoma were no different than anyone else in the 70's -80's until the govt ruined them.

Secondly, the USFWS/MTFWP needs to start aerial gunning wolves in the winter months wherever feasible in western MT. I have been seeing multiple individual wolf tracks and packs of wolves in areas that were devoid of wolves the past three years. Most every area I try cat hunting in district 120/132, 110 contains fresh wolf tracks. Also for example in district 120, there is only 12 mtn. lion permits issued, and a lesser quota of 4 toms. Most any road you drive or hike gated roads you can locate fresh lion tracks. There seems to be a lot of females with juveniles. They definitely effect the deer populations. I've heard others say the houndsmen are the ones wanted the restricted harvest. The other houndsmen I talk to feel as I do that the quota should be increased. I bet the restrictions are coming from the Outfitters, they need to go get a real job too.

I'm a outsider to Montana and do not have as much experience as the others on this forum, but I would attend the meetings if I thought my opinions would be considered. Buts its not likely. Does anyone have any recommendations on how to get restricted seasons, weapons choice into the MTFWP? Preston

 

[airlocksniffer]

Another point I want to make and I know this sounds racist, but these indians hunting year-around because of some b.s. agreement in the 1880's is crazy. Let them go get high and poach on the reservations. They are taking a lot of moose, mule deer, elk, bighorn, etc that aren't theirs. They lost the war, and sold a majority of their land and the govt. took away the other part. They need to get over it and go get a job. Indians growing up in Oklahoma were no different than anyone else in the 70's -80's until the govt ruined them.

It doesn't sound racist, it is racist.

 

[belly-deep]

It doesn't sound racist, it is racist.

What are your thoughts on the tribes being able to hunt MSG and draw elk/deer without complying with the FWP?

 

[mtmuley]

Yes and no. I’ll elaborate more later when I’m done tearing shit out and clean up my mess.

JLS, Where you at? mtmuley

 

[375H&H]

---

 

[Pagosa]

It doesn't sound racist, it is racist.

Ok, I'm fine with that.

Back to the point of the MTFWP tentative season structure. If I attend a meeting in Region 1 can I express my concern about a regulation proposal in Region 3 or do I need to attend the Region 3 meetings? I'm concerned about the MTFWP increasing elk b tags from 25 in 2012-14, to a increase of 150-175 in 2015-17, and now a proposed increase to 400-500 when based on their own survey methods and the FWP biologist says the district only contains 1600-1800 elk. That is a possibly harvest of 10%-25% of the entire herd.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Holy thread drift...
And I'd pay to make WY rifle elk seasons the same as they are or shorter, so I guess we'll even out.