More MT Fire Costs

Nemont

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Last modified May 24, 2004 - 12:42 am

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Fire crews for hire: State of Montana spent more than $2.5 million in 2003 on 'contract crews'
By JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau
and EVE BYRON
Helena Independent Record

The forecast for Aug. 12, 2003, promised 90-degree temperatures as 20 firefighters, employed by a private contractor in Oregon, drove almost 600 miles to work the 2,200-acre Boles Meadow fire near Missoula. As the fire grew by a few hundred acres on Aug. 13, the yellow-and-green clad crew, composed mainly of Hispanic men, spent the day confined to fire camp. Only three spoke English, and - as a safety measure - fire bosses wouldn't let them on the line until a fourth arrived.

The average firefighter on that crew earned about $10 an hour. But the state of Montana paid the company they worked for - R&R Contracting of Salem, Ore. - $26.45 an hour for each man.

At that rate, more than half of the $112,725 Montana taxpayers paid to have the crew working for 17 days last summer went to overhead and profit to the out-of-state company - at the rate of about $300 per hour.


Montana spent more than $2.5 million last summer on "contract crews" like the one from R&R Contracting. All were from out of state. And, according to an analysis by the Gazette State Bureau and Helena Independent Record of $30 million in 2003 fire receipts, Montana routinely paid the companies twice as much to hire the crews as the firefighters actually earned.

Montana relies heavily on private contractors to provide men and material during firefighting season. Montana has small initial-attack crews, but it doesn't maintain a single "hand crew" of firefighters who work on fires that last more than a few days, said Bud Clinch, chief of the Department of Natural Resources and Conservation. The only crew organized by Montana officials is a 15-man outfit from the Montana State Prison at Deer Lodge.

So why doesn't Montana organize its own firefighting crews?

"In a typical year, I wouldn't say we have the need for them," Clinch said.

The standard 20-person crew must be specially trained and paid whether it works or not. Clinch said he didn't want to have the crews organized, only to have them sit around in slow fire years.

But others, even within his own department, disagree.

Rick Grady, Helena unit fire supervisor for DNRC, said the state has the authority to pull together these larger crews and should do so.

"We just have to start thinking outside the box," he said.

Other Western states, including Wyoming and Nevada, organize large contingents of inmate firefighters. Nevada maintains more than 1,000. Wyoming has 100 firefighters at its state prison, said Bill Crapser, Wyoming state forester.

The crews work year-round on all kinds of maintenance and manual labor and are ready to jump on wildfires when the state needs them, he said.

Crapser said the debate over how much firefighting resources states should maintain is going on all over.

"One question the public and the Legislature have to ask is, 'Would we be better off maintaining a lot more personnel every year in case we have a bad year?' " he said. "Another question is, 'Are we ever going to see a normal year again?' "

So far, the private sector has rushed to fill the void. But some contractors say the dash for firefighting dollars has some problems.

Nelda Herman, owner of a large fire contracting company, GHR in Klamath Falls, Ore., said as fire seasons have become more powerful and word spreads that there's money to be made in the business, more outfits have sprung up with sometimes dubious safety and employee treatment standards.

"People are jumping on board to be a contractor," she said.
:( FULL Story :(
May 24, 2004

Worker: Severity is 'a scam'
By EVE BYRON
Helena Independent Record
and JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau

From late August until early September, Dave Hoback of Arlee put everything he had into using his skidgine to scrape a fire break in the soil and spray hot spots on the Cooney Ridge fire southwest of Missoula.

The skidgine is a rubber-tired machine that carries water for firefighting and has a blade on the front to cut a 6-foot swath to impede fires.

"Some days when you're on the line all day, and you're sweating so hard that you can't see," Hoback said, "It's not a lot of fun."

But for a few weeks before being sent to the Cooney Ridge fire, Hoback was one of the scores of contractors hired with millions in "severity" money - funds paid to contractors poised to respond if needed.

"I'm gonna be honest with you. That severity money is pretty much a scam," said Hoback, who made more money not working fires than working them. "A lot of days we didn't do anything … and the money is incredible.
:( Full Story :(
May 24, 2004

State spent $4 million on fire standby crews
By EVE BYRON
Helena Independent Record
and JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau

A review of $30 million spent in 2003 to fight Montana fires shows that more than $4 million was "severity" money - funds spent on people and equipment not actually fighting fires, but poised to fight if needed.

"Severity is to hire people that are on call, that are just sitting there, ready for a fire," said Ann Bauchman, Centralized Services administrator for Montana's Department of Natural Resources and Conservation. "Like last year in Helena, right around 5 o'clock one night, we had an amazing lightning storm in the North Hills. Because we knew the weather forecast was predicting the lightning, we had people on severity. If there were strikes - which there were - we had them on the fire quicker, and that decision paid off big time."

Severity resources are a gamble, said Bud Clinch, DNRC chief. If firefighters and equipment are ready for fires that begin, the crews and DNRC look like heroes. But if a fire doesn't starts, it looks like the state is wasting money.


DNRC officials and others hired for severity purposes say the prepositioned resources helped the state suppress 96 percent of the fires that started in Montana last year. :( Full Story :(
Nemont
 
This stuff is only reported on a very slanted view. Yes there is a lot of waste, but show me a government branch that doesn't have it. These reporters are only reporting on this because they are looking to make a name on the backs of others with out having to do much actual reporting. If these "Idiots" get out of their offices, get out on actual fires, dig line, spend their own moneies on equipment upkeep and every thing else that comes along with it, then they will have a place to talk. Other wise, it is no different than board :rolleyes: on this board that can only cut and paste any thing they know and hide behind some one elses apron strings... ;)
 
What were there; 343 I believe who died at the twin towers. What were they worth do you think? Fire fighting is one of those "Star Trek" age occupations where we civilians seem to think it should maybe done for free. I don't think so!
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Nemont, you ever run a buisness?
After paying your help, Labor and Industries, Taxes, Maintanace, New equipment, your time, and every thing else that comes along with the logisitics of running a buisness, let me know how much per hour you have to charge to keep things going. If this is such an expensive amount of money for each man, why is the Government hiring it out instead of just putting on more of their own? If you do these things, and put the numbers to it, get back to me and then show me why. Don't even take any one elses word for it, do the home work yourself. You may get your eyes opened...
 
Paws,

Don't confuse "firemen" who risk their lives to save people (and structures) with Pulaski motors, who dig ditches and prune shrubs....
 
And a statement like this made by one that honestly has never worked a day in their life to make a living... Don't be a hippicrite... :rolleyes:
 
LMAO!!!
I see a self rightous hippiecrite that should be carefull about throwning stones in glass houses... :eek: :D :D :D
 
Nemont, you ever run a buisness?
After paying your help, Labor and Industries, Taxes, Maintanace, New equipment, your time, and every thing else that comes along with the logisitics of running a buisness, let me know how much per hour you have to charge to keep things going. If this is such an expensive amount of money for each man, why is the Government hiring it out instead of just putting on more of their own? If you do these things, and put the numbers to it, get back to me and then show me why. Don't even take any one elses word for it, do the home work yourself. You may get your eyes opened...
I have run my own business for 10 years now. I posted these articles for discussions sake. As a taxpayer it is nice to know that people are reviewing the costs associated with fire suppression and fire fighting. Expecially as a taxpayer from the eastern side of the state when the vast majority of the firefighting dollars are spent on the western side of the state.

Did you read all the articles?

I'm gonna be honest with you. That severity money is pretty much a scam ," said Hoback, who made more money not working fires than working them. "A lot of days we didn't do anything … and the money is incredible.
I think the questions being asked are accurate and fair. People are speculating that they can purchase a engine for $20,000 and make $70,000 (gross), if there is a bad fire season, and perhaps not even start the pump.

Total Outlay of Capitol
$20,000 most likely borrowed lets say for 5 years
Assume they are paying 8% annual percent interest (which is probably high)= Annual Payments of $4,320.

Fuel, Taxes, Insurance, licensing and inspection lets say add another $20,000(again which most likely is high) to the cost of your operation. Annual Costs to you $24,320.

Last year this little enterprise would have generated positive cash flow of $45,680 Nearly 200 percent. Even taking out labor costs, opportunity costs and adding back in the fact that fire season lasts for about 5 months, meaning there are 7 months free to follow other endeavors, that is quite a good stroke of business.

My business doesn't see those kind of revenue streams.

Nemont

[ 05-28-2004, 14:52: Message edited by: Nemont ]
 
Nemont; capital equipment usually runs ten percent with a twenty percent down payment. 70K gross will net you less than 35 K after all is said and done and you still need to pick up your own retirement program and medical costs. Takes a lot of dough to make a little more dough especially if you have to work for it.
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Paws,
Any idea what the average annual income per capita for Montana is?

Even with netting little less then 35K it still for 5 months out of the year. I have no problem with anyone making money, even off the government. Also this is not the fault of the people who are engaged in the endeavor. It is more the fault of the government who signed the contracts and paid the invoices.

Also that 35K would purchase an engine with 15 K left over to do something else with. Guess what happens the following year. Or for the 70k the state could have purchased 3 engines and still had $$$ left over.


Nemont
 
Nope sure don't! But you got to remember that 35K may feed a family of four, five, or six thus reducing the PCI significantly. That isn't a whole lot of money when you spread it out over a year. I don't know either what the contractors do in terms of labor hours. I know in my case for every contact hour I spend with a client I will have invested somewhere between two and six additional hours in preparation or closeout etc. I think by the time they get trained, equipment maintained/serviced, travel to and from the job site, set up, clean up, and put away they would have substantial labor investment that might be considered Productive Indirect or Administrative effort.
 
why is the Government hiring it out instead of just putting on more of their own?
I know of more than one fed. office that has more firefighters on this year than any previous year.
 
But you got to remember that 35K may feed a family of four, five, or six thus reducing the PCI significantly. That isn't a whole lot of money when you spread it out over a year. I don't know either what the contractors do in terms of labor hours.
I have never said that 35K was a whole lot of money. What I was asked is have I ever ran my own business. Yes, I have, I take risks with my labor and capital every day. My point is that the current system does not always make fiscal sense. Read the entire story, other states use prisoners to fight fire. State officials are questioning the expense, even some of the fire fighters are saying the system in place is a scam.

The debate was never about feeding a family or making money for contractors but wise use of taxpayers dollars, which are in short supply in Montana.

capital equipment usually runs ten percent with a twenty percent down payment. 70K gross will net you less than 35 K after all is said and done and you still need to pick up your own retirement program and medical costs
Not questioning your statement but there are much more favorable terms out there to be had. I have financed capital equipment in the past 6 months at 6.5% and 10% down.

Nemont
 
Originally posted by pawclaws:
Nope sure don't! But you got to remember that 35K may feed a family of four, five, or six thus reducing the PCI significantly. That isn't a whole lot of money when you spread it out over a year. I don't know either what the contractors do in terms of labor hours. I know in my case for every contact hour I spend with a client I will have invested somewhere between two and six additional hours in preparation or closeout etc. I think by the time they get trained, equipment maintained/serviced, travel to and from the job site, set up, clean up, and put away they would have substantial labor investment that might be considered Productive Indirect or Administrative effort.
Paws,
Why would the size of a contractor's family matter on how much the government pays them???

And you need to look at your business model. It is always better to bill all of your hours out, then just the one in front. That way it is possible to bill 80-90 hours per week.
 
Those are pretty good rates there Nemont; it does pay to shop around. I can't tell you whether or not the state is getting a good deal on their rates with the fire fighting contracts because I don't know the market there. I can tell you that it is probably cheaper in the long run to contract the labor and equipment. And that statement of course is based on what is generally true when dealing with contracts versus public sector employement administration. Again in general my dealings with public sector firefighters, including those who specialize in aircraft, industrial, municipal, and woodland environments my experience is that their overall productivity rates average less than sixty percent. Shop rates run about 60/40 (equipment/labor)and those figures are about twenty years old. I have to assume that the good folk of Montana know what they are doing.
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I have to assume that the good folk of Montana know what they are doing.
Or you could assume the system is not working correctly and needs to be revamped to make it more fair to both the taxpayer and the contractor. Perhaps build in some long term leases.

Nemont
 
Are the fires getting put out? If so then the system is working.
hump.gif
 
Are the fires getting put out? If so then the system is working
We have not been discussing the system for putting out the fires but the costs associated with putting out the fires. The question before the taxpayers is this: Is it more cost efficient to contract for services or to provide the services themselves. It appears that last year it was not efficient.

Really has nothing to do with whether or not the fire have been put out.

Nemont

[ 05-29-2004, 06:55: Message edited by: Nemont ]
 

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