True- almost all 90/10 states have a subset with different rules.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't strictly apply 90/10 to their best tags.
90/10 with loopholes is nothing like 85/15 across the board.
Make a new draw system from scratch.
- Thread starter Hircine
- Start date
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't strictly apply 90/10 to their best tags.
90/10 with loopholes is nothing like 85/15 across the board.
Shangobango
Well-known member
100% random for residents and non residents. No outfitter set asides, outfitter pool, or any other sort of outfitter welfare. Landowner tags that are good only on land owned by the person receiving them and that are not transferable outside of immediate family. 90/10 split resident/non-resident across the board unless there are leftovers for a certain hunt code. Those leftovers would be first come first serve. Tag cost would be fronted to apply.
If this imaginary state were in the west, no OTC tags for mule deer, elk, or antelope of either sex unless there was a solid biological reason to do so. This would also apply to both residents and non-residents.
As far as pricing, I have no idea how to figure that really. In the State of Shango the Game and Fish Department would be 100% independent from the legislature so I would price licenses and tags based on being able to fund the Game and Fish Department and any conservation programs ran through it. Non-residents paying 8 to 10 times more than non-residents makes sense to me.
Some of the prices for antlerless and doe tags are ridiculously low for both residents and non-residents. There would be none of that in the State of Shango. I would try and find a balance where they were affordable enough to provide an opportunity at a reasonably priced experience, (and meat), but also have the average price cost enough to approach the value of the animal to the herd.
If this imaginary state were in the west, no OTC tags for mule deer, elk, or antelope of either sex unless there was a solid biological reason to do so. This would also apply to both residents and non-residents.
As far as pricing, I have no idea how to figure that really. In the State of Shango the Game and Fish Department would be 100% independent from the legislature so I would price licenses and tags based on being able to fund the Game and Fish Department and any conservation programs ran through it. Non-residents paying 8 to 10 times more than non-residents makes sense to me.
Some of the prices for antlerless and doe tags are ridiculously low for both residents and non-residents. There would be none of that in the State of Shango. I would try and find a balance where they were affordable enough to provide an opportunity at a reasonably priced experience, (and meat), but also have the average price cost enough to approach the value of the animal to the herd.
rogerthat
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Qualifications based system where tags were given out by a merit based system to hunters with the most experience and actually likely to fill said tags
D
Deleted member 28227
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MSGB and "Premium" Elk and Deer
3 pref points then bonus points (Colorado system)
Determination of Premium is floating and is defined as any unit that has worse than 20% draw odds.
All other tags are random draw. So if a tag has 100 apps for 10 tags it gets kicked into the point system for the next year, if that tag goes for 3 or less pref points ie doesn't make it to the bonus points it gets kicked down to the lottery.
Split 90/10 for MSGB
Split 80/20 for Elk, Pronghorn, and Deer
Cost of tags is 1 to 8 R to NR and is tied to CPI. So $100 R $800 NR and goes up with inflation.
If there aren't 10 tags in a give unit so most MSG, then NR get 10% of the total tags and those are specified and set aside. Meaning no one applies for a unit with zero tags.
No refunds, ever, no matter what, you can't go thanks... for the donation.
Pay for all tags in full up front.
All MSG tags must be applied for via a paper application in person at the state office and you must show ID for your application to be accepted. Kids can show hunters ed card. All applicants must be there in person.
All tags not sold in the draw can be purchased in-person, first come first serve from a designated vendor.
I get 1 tag of my choosing for creating such a great system.
... It's good to be king!
3 pref points then bonus points (Colorado system)
Determination of Premium is floating and is defined as any unit that has worse than 20% draw odds.
All other tags are random draw. So if a tag has 100 apps for 10 tags it gets kicked into the point system for the next year, if that tag goes for 3 or less pref points ie doesn't make it to the bonus points it gets kicked down to the lottery.
Split 90/10 for MSGB
Split 80/20 for Elk, Pronghorn, and Deer
Cost of tags is 1 to 8 R to NR and is tied to CPI. So $100 R $800 NR and goes up with inflation.
If there aren't 10 tags in a give unit so most MSG, then NR get 10% of the total tags and those are specified and set aside. Meaning no one applies for a unit with zero tags.
No refunds, ever, no matter what, you can't go thanks... for the donation.
Pay for all tags in full up front.
All MSG tags must be applied for via a paper application in person at the state office and you must show ID for your application to be accepted. Kids can show hunters ed card. All applicants must be there in person.
All tags not sold in the draw can be purchased in-person, first come first serve from a designated vendor.
I get 1 tag of my choosing for creating such a great system.
... It's good to be king!
Last edited by a moderator:
rogerthat
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- Aug 29, 2015
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- 2,670
Oh…and I forgot my system has a youth component as well but it actually makes it harder for the kids to draw tags. They can #earnit like I did when I was a kid. I call this system the Tred Barta system
Hircine
Active member
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- Apr 8, 2023
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- 101
So I've been writing up document. Needless to say it's not perfected and I've spent more time on a useless document than I care to admit. I must be mentally challenged to think that this would not only get anywhere, but that it'd actually change anything. Read at your own risk. You've been warned....
Modernized Draw System:
The Purpose of this draw system is designed to encourage serious hunters with a long-term draw system that yields higher odds of drawing a coveted “once-in-a-lifetime” (OIAL) tag while still being economical and revenue generating for state conservation efforts.
The Modernized Draw System (MDS) is species-specific investment draw system that is accomplished by enforcing a mandatory twenty-point “Proving Phase” followed by a “Genesis-Draw-Pool.” During the Proving Phase you must either purchase a point annually or elect to withdraw entirely by filling out a form (electronically). Depending on how many points you have in the proving-phase will determine what refund percentage you are entitled to. For example: A person who withdraws between 1-5 points (level 0) is nonrefundable, 6-8 (level 1) points are rated at 30% refund, 9-11 (level 2) points rated at 40% refund, 12-14 (level 3) points at 50% refund, 15-20 (level 4) points at 60% refund. 21 points and above (level 5) at 70% refund. Refund is based off the highest level you attained. Example: if you reached level 3 then you will be allotted 50% refund of all points accrued starting from point 6 onward. Level 4 will be 60% refund of all points accrued starting at point 6 onward. Level 5 will be allotted 70% refund of all points accrued at point 6 onward. If you elect withdrawal from the system then your points are nullified. If you do not purchase an annual point and fail to decree a withdrawal from the program then your points will nullify and all investments are forfeited to the state conservation program. Anyone who had their point portfolio nullified will start back at 1point in the proving phase upon purchase of their next point.
Entrance into the Genesis Pool is initiated with the purchase of the twenty first point. Once you have been admitted into the Genesis Pool you will be admitted for life without requirement of purchasing an annual point. Once admitted into the Genesis Pool your points will fall back to one point and be squared on an annual basis. Upon purchase of your next point for entrance into the random draw (Genesis Pool) that is limited to entries which meet the aforementioned prerequisites. This process will help ensure the longest applying candidates are the highest odds to draw that ensures a smaller draw pool while still being random for all pool candidates.
At any time, you may elect to withdraw from the Genesis Pool by filing out an electronic form. You will have a reimbursement of your investment with a percentage of up to but not exceeding a 70% refund. Your points will nullify and if you wish to restart in the program you will have to restart the Proving Phase at one point.
The spread of tags will be divided by a 75/25 split between residents and nonresidents respectively. The cost of tags will be at a fixed price that follows the adequate adjustments in respect to annual inflation rates. All species-specific tags will be priced the same regardless of resident status.
As these are once-in-a-lifetime (OIAL) tags, it reflects that once drawn, regardless of harvest or lack thereof. The drawn tag will be the sole tag granted to you by the state for that species in any capacity. Any person that has drawn a tag will automatically be barred from entering that species specific tag raffles. This ensures more people will be able to experience an OIAL hunt.
Requirements for nonresidents to purchase an outfitter is not mandatory. Allowing nonresidents to opt for a non-guided hunt ensures the essence of free market enterprising for the sole proprietor that owns the tag. Consequently this will pressure outfitters into reducing their prices and cutting into their profits. In order to incentivize outfitters to lower their prices, they will be allocated a portion of tags per species per year through an outfitter pool at a fixed price. The Outfitters will then be allowed to auction their tag(s) through their business. Proceeds generated from auctions will be taxed at a lesser rate than other incomes. This promotes options for both the hunter and the outfitter.
If this system were to be granted then there will be four separate drawing pools allocated from the same number of tags granted by the state. Resident/nonresident of the current system and resident/nonresident pools for the new system. The people who have points on the current system will have the option of moving into the new system at a cost of several points, however they will be ahead with the new system. Otherwise, the old system will phase out after < 20 years’ time. Anyone applying after instatement of this document will be put into the Modernized Draw System.
The objective of this draw system is to reward long term investors by ensuring the best draw odds possible for the longest investors simultaneously maintaining a lower financial cost to applicants and accruing higher funds for conservation efforts at the same time allowing flexibility to withdraw and recoup a percentage of funds the applicant has invested with. Also, to ensure fairness between residents and nonresidents as well as outfitters alike.
Modernized Draw System:
The Purpose of this draw system is designed to encourage serious hunters with a long-term draw system that yields higher odds of drawing a coveted “once-in-a-lifetime” (OIAL) tag while still being economical and revenue generating for state conservation efforts.
The Modernized Draw System (MDS) is species-specific investment draw system that is accomplished by enforcing a mandatory twenty-point “Proving Phase” followed by a “Genesis-Draw-Pool.” During the Proving Phase you must either purchase a point annually or elect to withdraw entirely by filling out a form (electronically). Depending on how many points you have in the proving-phase will determine what refund percentage you are entitled to. For example: A person who withdraws between 1-5 points (level 0) is nonrefundable, 6-8 (level 1) points are rated at 30% refund, 9-11 (level 2) points rated at 40% refund, 12-14 (level 3) points at 50% refund, 15-20 (level 4) points at 60% refund. 21 points and above (level 5) at 70% refund. Refund is based off the highest level you attained. Example: if you reached level 3 then you will be allotted 50% refund of all points accrued starting from point 6 onward. Level 4 will be 60% refund of all points accrued starting at point 6 onward. Level 5 will be allotted 70% refund of all points accrued at point 6 onward. If you elect withdrawal from the system then your points are nullified. If you do not purchase an annual point and fail to decree a withdrawal from the program then your points will nullify and all investments are forfeited to the state conservation program. Anyone who had their point portfolio nullified will start back at 1point in the proving phase upon purchase of their next point.
Entrance into the Genesis Pool is initiated with the purchase of the twenty first point. Once you have been admitted into the Genesis Pool you will be admitted for life without requirement of purchasing an annual point. Once admitted into the Genesis Pool your points will fall back to one point and be squared on an annual basis. Upon purchase of your next point for entrance into the random draw (Genesis Pool) that is limited to entries which meet the aforementioned prerequisites. This process will help ensure the longest applying candidates are the highest odds to draw that ensures a smaller draw pool while still being random for all pool candidates.
At any time, you may elect to withdraw from the Genesis Pool by filing out an electronic form. You will have a reimbursement of your investment with a percentage of up to but not exceeding a 70% refund. Your points will nullify and if you wish to restart in the program you will have to restart the Proving Phase at one point.
The spread of tags will be divided by a 75/25 split between residents and nonresidents respectively. The cost of tags will be at a fixed price that follows the adequate adjustments in respect to annual inflation rates. All species-specific tags will be priced the same regardless of resident status.
As these are once-in-a-lifetime (OIAL) tags, it reflects that once drawn, regardless of harvest or lack thereof. The drawn tag will be the sole tag granted to you by the state for that species in any capacity. Any person that has drawn a tag will automatically be barred from entering that species specific tag raffles. This ensures more people will be able to experience an OIAL hunt.
Requirements for nonresidents to purchase an outfitter is not mandatory. Allowing nonresidents to opt for a non-guided hunt ensures the essence of free market enterprising for the sole proprietor that owns the tag. Consequently this will pressure outfitters into reducing their prices and cutting into their profits. In order to incentivize outfitters to lower their prices, they will be allocated a portion of tags per species per year through an outfitter pool at a fixed price. The Outfitters will then be allowed to auction their tag(s) through their business. Proceeds generated from auctions will be taxed at a lesser rate than other incomes. This promotes options for both the hunter and the outfitter.
If this system were to be granted then there will be four separate drawing pools allocated from the same number of tags granted by the state. Resident/nonresident of the current system and resident/nonresident pools for the new system. The people who have points on the current system will have the option of moving into the new system at a cost of several points, however they will be ahead with the new system. Otherwise, the old system will phase out after < 20 years’ time. Anyone applying after instatement of this document will be put into the Modernized Draw System.
The objective of this draw system is to reward long term investors by ensuring the best draw odds possible for the longest investors simultaneously maintaining a lower financial cost to applicants and accruing higher funds for conservation efforts at the same time allowing flexibility to withdraw and recoup a percentage of funds the applicant has invested with. Also, to ensure fairness between residents and nonresidents as well as outfitters alike.
LCH
Well-known member
Bratwurst and eggs for supper tonight. Been watching the carbs lately.
WildWill
Well-known member
Hircine
Active member
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- Apr 8, 2023
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I warned you
Hircine
Active member
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- Apr 8, 2023
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Sometimes you just gotta jump from a plane not knowing if the parachute was packed right
WildWill
Well-known member
You seem passionate and have decently thick skin that will serve you well. Instead of trying to change a system that has no interest in changing and lamenting how things should be just focus on working within that system. Focusing on making more money will get you much further in hunting out of state then trying to change systems is the sad truth. There are opportunities out there for those willing to do the research and sacrifice a little. This sight is full of guy's who have been there and done that and are a valuable resource.I warned you
Ahh, you hold stock in the CC/banks profiting off these pretend/reversed transactions. You like moving money around to profit the banks (stockholders) and limit competing applicants from a lower socioeconomic class. Well played.
I would refund for death & deployment orders. For all those alleged serious illnesses/injuries, send a well written get-well soon e-card. And no reissuing returned tags. A return % is burnt in to quotas naturally. It’s a non-issue and agencies should refuse the temptation to double-sell a tag.
Don Fischer
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- Jun 27, 2017
- Messages
- 3,021
Well seeing as I've had trouble getting a tag near home since the draw started, resident's of the area being drawn for get first tags. I'd eliminate non resident tags for deer, elk and bear. Anything else is premium draw with high cost both resident and non resident alike.
I’d follow Idaho’s system splitting M/S/G requiring to choose a species. Elk/deer/antelope a different draw. 90/10 resident to non-resident. No points.
Non-resident price’s determined as the average for each species by averaging the states that touch Idaho (Wa, OR, NV, UT, WY and MT). I’d be in favor of reciprocal non-resident pricing agreements with neighboring states. (150% of resident?).
Longer wait period for successful applicants. 5 year for trophy and 2 years for E/D/A.
Fix the computer system for OTC tag sales.
Non-resident price’s determined as the average for each species by averaging the states that touch Idaho (Wa, OR, NV, UT, WY and MT). I’d be in favor of reciprocal non-resident pricing agreements with neighboring states. (150% of resident?).
Longer wait period for successful applicants. 5 year for trophy and 2 years for E/D/A.
Fix the computer system for OTC tag sales.
Derek44
Well-known member
FrEe Fir OLL!!!! No tAgs,,, just BLasT wHadeva ya WANT weNeva ya waNt. yA’Lll nO thE giG. RigHt iN tHe Fggin ….
Hircine
Active member
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- Apr 8, 2023
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- 101
Taking the 1800's approach. I respect that.
I go back and forth in my head so much on the msg eda split. As someone that has bad luck and applies for moose or sheep I actually may never even get to apply for elk deer or antelope tags here. I’m sure it helps some with draw odds but they’re already low
I forgot to kill off the outfitter controlled hunt pool; it’s a joke as basically no one applies for them and they’re just issued to the outfitter’s to then sell to clients or whoever they feel like ti later in the year. If they are killed at least put them on a waiting period
