Elementary Shooting

[BuzzH]

There is NO answer...period.

This blame game needs to stop. Its not a daddy issue, its not society, its not the guns fault, its not a partisan issue, its not a moral issue, its not a god issue, its not a video game issue.

Its a reality of life...crazy people exist and they do bad things.

Too many people try to "fix" the unfixable...too many want to "blame" something/someone.

It just doesnt work...

 

[JoseCuervo]

There is NO answer...period.

This blame game needs to stop. Its not a daddy issue, its not society, its not the guns fault, its not a partisan issue, its not a moral issue, its not a god issue, its not a video game issue.

Its a reality of life...crazy people exist and they do bad things.

Too many people try to "fix" the unfixable...too many want to "blame" something/someone.

It just doesnt work...

Do other countries shoot each other at the same rate we do?

If the answer is "yes" then there is not a problem. If the answer is "no", then there might be a problem and there might need to be something fixed.

 

[JoseCuervo]

One of the saddest things I see is humanity is people using these peoples lives to try and push their politics.

There is no easy answer.

I would think being one of the parents of those 20 kindergartners would be a sadder thing than seeing a national discussion take place.

 

[BuzzH]

Do other countries shoot each other at the same rate we do?

If the answer is "yes" then there is not a problem. If the answer is "no", then there might be a problem and there might need to be something fixed.

What are you willing to sacrifice to "fix" it?

...and yes, try the Congo on for size:

News from the Congo's Ituri region in recent weeks has been so grim as to make one want to turn the page or flip the TV channel in despair: tens of thousands of refugees in flight, ethnic-based mass murder, killers jubilantly draping themselves in the entrails of their victims, rival militias using child soldiers - 10- and 11-year-old boys bearing AK-47s and hand grenades. Such horrors are but the latest in a civil war whose death toll, in less than five years, is estimated by the International Rescue Committee at 3.3 million at least. This is the greatest such bloodshed anywhere on Earth since the end of World War II and there is no end in sight.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Horrible that I takes a CivilWar to have more bloodshed than the US.

 

[BuzzH]

You asked the question...I answered it.

Plenty more countries kill each at a much higher rate than the U.S.

Want more examples?

 

[JoseCuervo]

You asked the question...I answered it.

Plenty more countries kill each at a much higher rate than the U.S.

Want more examples?

Yeah. I am on my phone and can't google it for myself. Should we limit the discussion to western countries?

Are the rates for civilians killing civilians with guns in a non war environment higher in other countries? If so, what are they doing wrong?

If rates of shooting are lower, what are they doing right?

 

[Recurve62]

The "national discussion" has been going on and on and on. Truth is truth but sometimes it is hard for our minds or emotions to admit to, it is NOT THE GUNS , NOT THE GUNS , not the guns. The root of all of these evil acts is people, what we have become as a nation in the last 50 years, what we will silently accept from the minority of people who have removed guilt and blame from our society, who have made it somehow wrong to parent and raise children as our parents did. Where we go from here is up to us, the majority of people who I believe still know right from wrong. We cannot be silenced any longer, we can no longer be marginalized as regressive, old fasioned and out of touch.

 

[DHaffner]

There are no words. Simply prayers for the victims and their families.

 

[MattK]

Recurve62

The "national discussion" has been going on and on and on. Truth is truth but sometimes it is hard for our minds or emotions to admit to, it is NOT THE GUNS , NOT THE GUNS , not the guns. The root of all of these evil acts is people, what we have become as a nation in the last 50 years, what we will silently accept from the minority of people who have removed guilt and blame from our society, who have made it somehow wrong to parent and raise children as our parents did. Where we go from here is up to us, the majority of people who I believe still know right from wrong. We cannot be silenced any longer, we can no longer be marginalized as regressive, old fasioned and out of touch.

Odd that you say in the last 50 years...the largest school killing happened in 1927 in Michigan...must have been godless back then too (a little beyond your 50 year mark). The earliest school killing happened in 1764 in Pennsylvania...maybe you should just say the US has never dealt with " the minority of people who have removed guilt and blame from our society"...

 

[mixedbag]

We have came up with some ideas such as armed security guards and teahers as a solution to low lifes coming into known gun free places to have at innocent people.
So Jose/Buzz,What are your solutions you want us to listen to??????You asked for us to discuss this so I really and I mean REALLY want to hear your solution.This should be quite entertaining for most of us.From all I've ever read from your posts is you want god and guns out of our society.Please give examples of your plan to rid of of these dangerous scum,and how your plan will work to keep these people from endangering us all.I'm guessing more federal funding will be in order to enact any plan you may have
Please explain your plan an make it in simple writting so us uneducated can understand.I'll start making my popcorn awaiting this response

 

[justdada]

There is NO answer...period.

This blame game needs to stop. Its not a daddy issue, its not society, its not the guns fault, its not a partisan issue, its not a moral issue, its not a god issue, its not a video game issue.

Its a reality of life...crazy people exist and they do bad things.

Too many people try to "fix" the unfixable...too many want to "blame" something/someone.

It just doesnt work...

100% agree buzz... sad that others can't see this

 

[Little Canyon Creek]

I think that this is the most accurate depiction of the problem that I have read so far. It is written by a mother whose son displays the intelligence and behavioral tendencies of these killers. I think that it shows that if there is a solution to this problem it will not be an easy one.

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

 

[Big Fin]

I think that this is the most accurate depiction of the problem that I have read so far. It is written by a mother whose son displays the intelligence and behavioral tendencies of these killers. I think that it shows that if there is a solution to this problem it will not be an easy one.

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

That is very compelling in the context it has to this discussion. I am copying and pasting here, as many might not click the link. Thanks for sharing. I agree, that hits some major points that are far deeper than the superficial arguments we will hear from the fringes on both sides.

I wonder how committed we are to providing solutions that can help situations such as this. Gonna cost money. Gonna require some changes in perceptions. And like you said, "......if there is a solution to this problem it will not be an easy one."

Friday, December 14, 2012
Thinking the Unthinkable

In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”

“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”

“You know where we are going,” I replied.

“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with....at what age did your child....were there any problems with...has your child ever experienced...does your child have....”

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. My son’s father refuses to be a part of Michael’s life for more than three hours a week. My son’s father is trying to take my time with my younger children away, because none of us are safe with Michael (I agree with this statement, but I don’t know that I feel like my children are any safer with their father, who has struggled with mental illness for several years).

Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am Jason Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map). Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population. (http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled)

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011 (http://www.npr.org/2011/09/04/140167676/nations-jails-struggle-with-mentally-ill-prisoners)

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

 

[WyOpitz]

Wow! That gave me goosebumps to understand what she was going through.

 

[bmack]

Randy - thanks for sharing, I was going to share the same article because I think it makes so much sense as to why these continue to happen.

Here is another link that discusses the statistics of mass shootings in the US over the last 30 years. On the map you can hover over each incident and it reviews some specifics. Overwhelmingly, the question of "prior signals of mental illness" the answer is YES or Unclear.

This also shows that over 75% of the shooters purchased the guns legally and handguns were the most commons weapon of choice by a 2:1 margin.

I don't know what the answer is, but I hope we can come together as a country and find a middle ground.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map