A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

[huronmtns]

Not addressing your mom of course VG, but shouldn't we demand a valid voter ID card using E-Verify to prove that you are actually a bona fide US Citizen? I for one didn't stand on the wall defending my Country to have illegals and other ineligibles outright steal my birthright from me. I hold that precious. You want to see a revolution in this country then allow that to occur. We'll put an end to that nonsense lickity split. Arguing that its inconvenient for someone to be registered and justly recognized to vote is laughable and if true so what? That's another "you" problem not societies. I'd like US to go back to the additional standard that you have to be a Real Property owner to actually cast a ballot. If you're not then you have no skin in the game of the future of your Country.

I wonder how many people renting in the big cities and or rural areas that you in some form rely on for your financial and life success would like your comment. I can think of the medical world, many doctors and support staff do not own houses and are renters as they move around in research and teaching roles. You really should open your ears and eyes and figure out how society works before making comments like that. There are people that talk out of their underwear, I think you are in need of changing yours with that comment.

 

[rwc101]

On one hand, I hate how @Big Fin. @VikingsGuy, @Hunting Wife, and @JLS often eloquently express sentiments I can only utter in guttural noises.

On the other,

 

[Randi]

some in the military do not own homes

some in nursing homes do not own homes

some attending college do not own homes

some long haul truckers do not own homes

etc, etc, etc

they are not allowed to vote ???

 

[Deleted member 20812]

some in the military do not own homes

some in nursing homes do not own homes

some attending college do not own homes

some long haul truckers do not own homes

etc, etc, etc

they are not allowed to vote ???

We may as well attach minimum acreage to that caveat, you know to weed out the riff raff we don't want voting.

 

[Big Fin]

@Big Fin, I imagine this thread has been close to getting shut down several times, but I want to thank you for leaving it open. This is a difficult and emotion filled issue to discuss right now in the world, but one that is important. This forum's members have, for the most part, been civil even though many varying views have been expressed. It has been educational and I for one appreciate everyone's willingness to share their life experiences and points of view.

Yes, since it was posted, I have it on my alerts, something I never do. I have come close to closing it many times. But, I am an optimist that it can be beneficial.

I have confidence in the Hunt Talk community that even though we rib each other sometimes and we might get heated in our discussions, the collective group can keep the conversation beneficial. I hope my confidence doesn't turn out to be incorrect.

A lot of diverse discussion, especially on a topic as important as this, can be helpful to all. I can only speak for myself when I say that geographically I have almost no interaction with people of different skin tone. I can try to imagine their situation, but my imagination is not going to match their reality. I try to expand interactions outside my geographic confines, but that still is not the same.

For me, I look to parallels in my life to try understand. I don't have to look very far. I look at my friends I grew up with who came from the two tribal reservations nearby. They were never given the same benefit of doubt as I was. As a teenager I did things that strayed outside the rules, same as they did. They ended up with a different treatment than I did. They had to fight almost weekly in grade school, monthly in high school. I likely fought once a month in grade school and maybe once a year in high school.

I can't imagine getting on that school bus every morning for an hour-long bus ride, knowing some guy three years older and forty pounds bigger was going to mess with me and make fun of me because I came from a reservation. I wasn't faced with the reality that if I ignored that big ogre he and his pals would try to physically intimidate me. I didn't have to deal with any of that. As I grew, I came to admire my tribal friends, what they endured, how their humanity contradicted all the 1970s stereotypes I'd been told, and I came to appreciate what they taught me (like hanging antlers in trees ).

If I were as artistically talented as my Ojibwe grade school friend Peter Rolo, I would have likely had an easy path to art school, likely becoming a famous artist or illustrator. I likely would not have had to fight every week at school if I had a stuttering challenge as he did, having no family resources to help him get speech therapy. I likely would not have died a young man, as he did, rather continued to live a life free of the struggles he had.

From Peter's example and that of his brother Mark and sister Ruth, I learned a lot. A lot about myself and my own ignorances born of my mental laziness. Their example and some other life events showed me how blessed I am/was to be born a white male in America.

I've made some really stupid statements in my life. As a kid, I said some racist things that I had no idea were hurtful to those who I said them to. Yet, when you saw the look in their eyes and the betrayal of friendship they felt, even as a twelve year-old I could see the damage I caused. I went through a period as a young man, confident that my view of the world was the correct view. I've embarrassed myself with my confidence born of ignorance and small-world thinking. From those events, I've come to realize how much I learn when I listen; when I truly try to take my mind to a different place and different circumstances.

I'm still ignorant of these issues when it comes to day-to-day interactions and I hope conversations like these can help me learn. I'm not ignorant to the realities I see in our society that make it clear to me that life is different for most people with a different skin tone or a different set of chromosomes.

I'm mostly listening and trying to learn, here and where other meaningful discussions are happening on this topic, FB not being one of those places. If some start down a path that get this thread off the rails, I will be extremely pissed, as most the comments give a lot for us to think about.

 

[huronmtns]

We may as well attach minimum acreage to that caveat, you know to weed out the riff raff we don't want voting.

Or give them one vote for each of the parcels they own.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Or give them one vote for each of the parcels they own.

Or maybe some type of points scheme - save up your votes for a few years so you can vote for a better politician in the future.

 

[Trial153]

Weighted voting is has already happened in the country. Re citizens United. Just ask Ted Cruz, how much weighted votes matter when three people funded 90% of his presidential campaign

 

[Bigjay73]

Weighted voting is has already happened in the country. Re citizens United. Just ask Ted Cruz, how much weighted votes matter when three people funded 90% of his presidential campaign

Can we not go here

 

[Trial153]

Can we not go here

I think were already went there it was suggested that one should be a land owner to have a vote.

 

[Big Fin]

Back on track, folks. Back on track.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

Again, reflect on the numbers. The statistics show the lopsidedness. How did we get there?

Years of suppression having at least two effects.
1. Rejection by most of society (white folk) preventing integration and support of the young.
2. Breaking of the typical family structure preventing support of the young.


You are a product of both genes and your environment. If you were raised in a lopsidedly poor environment, that is going to affect on what you become. And by poor environment, I mean everything from nutrition, social development, economic opportunity. Some can and do overcome, but when you are held back, that path isn't as easy.

lol really, you mean the ton of single family homes cause one of the parents are in jail for a crime or dead because of violence that they chose to do???? No one makes people do drugs, sell drugs, become a gang member, murder someone, etc.... there choice period, has nothing to do with racism! Make stupid choices, get stupid prizes! Nobody is holding minority’s back besides themselves and the choices they make.
Matt

 

[azelkhntr]

I’d like to suggest y’all watch Life, Liberty and Levin 6-14-20 on YouTube. Excellent views from very smart people.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

lol really, you mean the ton of single family homes cause one of the parents are in jail for a crime or dead because of violence that they chose to do????

That seems to be an overly simplistic, and likely unfair depiction of things.

 

[RaiderRich]

lol really, you mean the ton of single family homes cause one of the parents are in jail for a crime or dead because of violence that they chose to do???? No one makes people do drugs, sell drugs, become a gang member, murder someone, etc.... there choice period, has nothing to do with racism! Make stupid choices, get stupid prizes! Nobody is holding minority’s back besides themselves and the choices they make.
Matt

This may lack the perspective of point of view. I am not going to try to figure out how someone raised in inner city poverty ends up making the choices they do. People in general when faced with grim realities are going to choose what seems to be the easiest path for survival. I could be wrong but from what I have read in regards to inner city poverty youth and gangs, you pretty much may be faced with joining one or dying anyways. I try to stick to the old saying, "Don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes."

We tend to be a product of our environment. I was lucky enough to grow up in a decent nurturing environment and as a result tried to provide that for my children. Who knows what I might be like if I had grown up in a screwed up home/environment. The fact of the matter is we do not all have equal opportunities in life. It is Utopian thought to think otherwise and humans again and again have shown the ability to not allow Utopia to exist. If the world and the people in it were perfect we simply would not have all these issues we have now.

 

[MTLabrador]

I have lived my entire life in a very white part of the country so I haven’t felt like I had much to add to this conversation, although I have seen some pretty overt and ugly racism growing up next door to the Crow reservation.

To suggest that voting RIGHTS should be tied to land owning PRIVILEGE is absolutely asinine. I am very fortunate that I’m still a part owner of the family ranch my great grandfather homesteaded and that my grandmother was born on and my father grew up on in NE Wyoming.

My mother’s side of the family in NE Montana has a similar background, except for the fact that they went through some very hard times and lost the family homestead many years ago. I can’t believe that some would suggest that my dad’s side of the family (including me), should be able to vote as landowners and homeowners, while my grandmother, who was raised on the family ranch, should not have been able to vote because she didn’t own real property. I honestly cannot imagine a more un-American idea.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Poverty and crime are intrinsically linked. As @RaiderRich alluded to, escaping the inner city gang life probably is not as simple as it may seem.

This is an interesting article on racial wealth gaps.

Black, Latino Two-Parent Families Have Half The Wealth Of White Single Parents

New data illustrate how deeply entrenched the racial wealth gap is. The reasons traverse the historical and deliberate exclusion of people of color from economic institutions and government programs.

www.npr.org

With poverty comes an increased likelihood of drug usage. Is there any wonder then, that there is a disproportionate level of crime within black communities?

All of this creates a huge societal cost. Positive solutions would contribute greatly on both social and economic levels, but they probably aren’t as simple as saying don’t make stupid choices.

 

[Big Fin]

Nobody is holding minority’s back besides themselves and the choices they make.
Matt

Hmmm. Most instances I've witnessed in my life were not quite that simple for the folks involved. My experiences with minorities were with tribal families.

Family in my home town that I grew up with. Seven kids. White father and Ojibwe mother who got the chit kicked out of her on a regular basis. Dad is a regular at the pubs and mother is seldom seen. Mom dies tragically in her early forties from a cause that most locals say was easily treatable if the old man had not pissed away all the family's money on booze and mom could have been allowed even basic medical care.

When mom dies, the two oldest brothers, 16 and 17, move back to the reservation with distant family. The only daughter, all of 13 at the time, tries to raise the four younger brothers, ages 12, 11, 7, and 4. The youngest, not yet old enough to be in the public school vaccination program, gets polio at a time when the rest of the world only heard old stories about polio. Such is life when you can't afford health care. What they have for food is scarce and mostly due to the generosity of neighbors and churches. Clothing was an assortment of hand-me-downs we'd all seen other kids in town wearing in years past. If not for subsidized school meals, I'm not sure what they would have gotten to eat.

Eventually, the burden is too heavy. The sister and her next-in-line brother cannot carry the load any longer. After three years of valiant effort, the family is broken up by concerned state officials and dispersed; the sister and two brothers back to the reservation with distant family, one brother stays with a local white family, and the youngest to a local foster family who can help with his polio complications.

The four brothers were all within two years older or five years younger than me. Only two of them are still alive as I type this, with the 12 and 11 year-old later dying in their life prime and joining one of their older brothers, the 16 year-old, who suffered the same fate. Out of a family of seven, all mostly my age, three have already died and one lives a very difficult life due to complications of polio that was easily preventable.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that the only thing holding those kids back was "themselves and the choices they made." Those kids were dealt a cruel hand that shouldered them with an unimaginable burden. It wasn't their choice for the old man to knock the hell out of mom whenever he got sauced down at the pub. It wasn't their choice to have mom die at a young age. It wasn't their choice to live in poverty beyond what any of us can imagine. I know this happens on reservations and with tribal families more than we care to admit. I suspect the urban communities stricken with generational poverty have a painful abundance of similar examples.

Those consequences had a great bearing on what future those kids could make for themselves. It would be nice if the world was as simple as you state. At least in my experience, such is not the case.

EDIT - If you want to read a remarkably painful non-fiction story written by one of those brothers mentioned above, one who somehow found his way forward, you can buy his book on Amazon at this link - https://amzn.to/3d1yxYl

 

[MTLabrador]

Hmmm. Most instances I've witnessed in my life were not quite that simple for the folks involved. My experiences with minorities were with tribal families.

Family in my home town that I grew up with. Seven kids. White father and Ojibwe mother who got the chit kicked out of her on a regular basis. Dad is a regular at the pubs and mother is seldom seen. Mom dies tragically in her early forties from a cause that most locals say was easily treatable if the old man had not pissed away all the family's money on booze and mom could have been allowed even basic medical care.

When mom dies, the two oldest brothers, 16 and 17, move back to the reservation with distant family. The only daughter, all of 13 at the time, tries to raise the four younger brothers, ages 12, 11, 7, and 4. The youngest, not yet old enough to be in the public school vaccination program, gets polio at a time when the rest of the world only heard old stories about polio. Such is life when you can't afford health care. What they have for food is scarce and mostly due to the generosity of neighbors and churches. Clothing was an assortment of hand-me-downs we'd all seen other kids in town wearing in years past. If not for subsidized school meals, I'm not sure what they would have gotten to eat.

Eventually, the burden is too heavy. The sister and her next-in-line brother cannot carry the load any longer. After three years of valiant effort, the family is broken up by concerned state officials and dispersed; the sister and two brothers back to the reservation with distant family, one brother stays with a local white family, and the youngest to a local foster family who can help with his polio complications.

The four brothers were all within two years older or three years younger than me. Only two of them are still alive as I type this, with the 12 and 11 year old dying in their life prime and joining one of their older brothers, the 16 year-old, who suffered the same fate. Out of a family of seven, all mostly my age, three have already died and one lives a very difficult life due to complications of polio that was easily preventable.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that the only thing holding those kids back was "themselves and the choices they made." Those kids were dealt a cruel hand that shouldered them with an unimaginable burden. It wasn't their choice for the old man to knock the hell out of mom whenever he got sauced down at the pub. It wasn't their choice to have mom die at a young age. It wasn't their choice to live in poverty beyond what any of us can imagine. I know this happens on reservations and with tribal families more than we care to admit. I suspect the urban communities stricken with generational poverty have a painful abundance of similar examples.

Those consequences had a great bearing on what future those kids could make for themselves. It would be nice if the world was as simple as you state. At least in my experience, such is not the case.

Exactly what I’ve seen with a whole lot of Crow and Northern Cheyenne kids I know.

 

[Big Fin]

Given this thread is starting to get populated with absolutisms about the complicated topic of race, I am recopying the article the original poster cited in his original post. That is the topic of this thread and I ask that the thread stays on that track.

Thoughts on the killing of George Floyd

Wait before you judge. Take a deep breath. Because you can. In the wake of the murder of George Floyd, I’ve seen countless people on social media expressing their rage — not about George’s death or about the underlying problem of inequality in our country — but about looting and physical damage...

www.hatchmag.com