New points theory

[ImBillT]

You had me for a while, then you used the word hoard. Tough to hoard something when you only draw it once.

Pre-point systems guys hunted all the top areas, then when demand got high they found a way to make sure they could hunt them all one more time before the new guy got a chance. Way more than one total opportunity for those who instituted the point systems.

Heck if NM went to points, I’d be in at the ground floor, but I’ve hunted elk there twice already, and some guy who starts hunting 2-3 years after the point system goes into effect would be behind me in line. And I’m supposed to think it’s okay for me to look back and him and wave my finger and say “nuh uh, you gotta wait your turn. Start at the back of the line just like I, well, let’s not talk about how I got started, the point is, I’m ahead of you in line”. Nope sorry. Hoard is an acceptable word. It’s a public resource and they day you decide to participate you should have an equal shot at participating compared to everyone else. If demand increases, we should all feel it, not just those at the back of an imaginary line that was drawn by those who though demand might increase and they wanted it for themselves.

Participate in a random system for 50 years and on average you’ll draw 50X as many tags as someone who participates for only 1 year. No points necessary.

 

[ImBillT]

As far as going away from a point system, just stop selling any new points, and put an ever increasing percentage of the tags on random as points start being eliminated due to people drawing tags. No need to put a time limit on when someone burns them.

 

[Buffs35]

they found a way to make sure they could hunt them all one more time before the new guy got a chance.

 

[Zim]

While most guys do want a chance before 40. Its not just new hunters dissatisfied with the points systems.
Please tell us your future plan in Oregon now that you "cashed 22 pts on an elk tag and 46 on deer and lope".
How old do you estimate you will be when you get another crack at those same hunts?

Do you really have to ask? ………….I promptly ran like hell! The game management there now sucks, the NR quota was reduced to 2 1/2% after I bought in, and half the NR tags morphed into outfitter welfare. This was my easiest exit decision on the planet. So all newbies to the Oregon system can knock yourselves out without worrying about me being in front of you.

 

[Buffs35]

Pre-point systems guys hunted all the top areas, then when demand got high they found a way to make sure they could hunt them all one more time before the new guy got a chance. Way more than one total opportunity for those who instituted the point systems.

Heck if NM went to points, I’d be in at the ground floor, but I’ve hunted elk there twice already, and some guy who starts hunting 2-3 years after the point system goes into effect would be behind me in line. And I’m supposed to think it’s okay for me to look back and him and wave my finger and say “nuh uh, you gotta wait your turn. Start at the back of the line just like I, well, let’s not talk about how I got started, the point is, I’m ahead of you in line”. Nope sorry. Hoard is an acceptable word. It’s a public resource and they day you decide to participate you should have an equal shot at participating compared to everyone else. If demand increases, we should all feel it, not just those at the back of an imaginary line that was drawn by those who though demand might increase and they wanted it for themselves.

Participate in a random system for 50 years and on average you’ll draw 50X as many tags as someone who participates for only 1 year. No points necessary.

I have only been applying the last 2 or 3 years in other states, so I fit your strawman. If I didn't like their systems, I wouldn't apply. I am all for restructuring point systems, heck I can't even get a tag to hunt my own property in eastern Colorado every year, but denigrating current point holders isn't goin to build a consensus.

 

[Zim]

Not true. Plenty of average joes embraced it and supported it at the time of inception. See post 70.

I'm sorry Zim but if you look at points as an investment where you are entitled to a return you will likely be disappointed.

Not in some states. I’ll be enjoying my Colorado unit 61 archery elk hunt this year thanks to my 26 year “investment”. I think you can classify me more as a point “spender” than “hoarder”. That will be nearly 100 points I spent in the last 4 years. And would have been more had I not sat out last year.

 

[Zim]

Not true. Plenty of average joes embraced it and supported it at the time of inception. See post 70.

Certainly no invested point holders embraced it.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Not in some states. I’ll be enjoying my Colorado unit 61 archery elk hunt this year thanks to my 26 year “investment”. I think you can classify me more as a point “spender” than “hoarder”. That will be nearly 100 points I spent in the last 4 years. And would have been more had I not sat out last year.

Sounds great.
what do you plan to do in CO next?

 

[Zim]

Sounds great.
what do you plan to do in CO next?

Burning my 16 deer & 26 pronghorn points on CO hunts in 2023, which will put me at ground zero with the newbies. Then plan on targeting 3-5 point units afterwards if my health holds out. Just had a son move there with my two grand daughters so this is my chance to visit them.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Burning my 16 deer & 26 pronghorn points on CO hunts in 2023, which will put me at ground zero with the newbies. Then plan on targeting 3-5 point units afterwards if my health holds out. Just had a son move there with my two grand daughters so this is my chance to visit them.

Exactly this is the problem with points. What you have done is the best case scenario with a point system.
Now 10 days of bad weather, a bad year, or God forbid something happens to your health and your best days will be behind you at the end of this hunt. No hopes, no dreams for another one of those tags.

Most people I see change their mind about point systems have cashed in a crazy amount of points and are now on the wrong side of the system.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

There is a faulty assumption on this thread that people need a top-tier Colorado elk tag to be happy in life. If you strip that away, this is a very different discussion.

QQ

 

[Elkmagnet]

There is a faulty assumption on this thread that people need a top-tier Colorado elk tag to be happy in life. If you strip that away, this is a very different discussion.

QQ

Im not sure if my responses read that way but I don't think that. I personally think people are crazy for having that many points.
I think I would be disappointed with any hunt I waited 26-33 years for.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I personally want a chance and something to dream about. Not jumping in Co unless there is a change.

 

[Zim]

Exactly this is the problem with points. What you have done is the best case scenario with a point system.
Now 10 days of bad weather, a bad year, or God forbid something happens to your health and your best days will be behind you at the end of this hunt. No hopes, no dreams for another one of those tags.

Most people I see change their mind about point systems have cashed in a crazy amount of points and are now on the wrong side of the system.

My best days already are behind me. But that won’t stop me from hunting. Or burning my points.

 

[Zim]

Im not sure if my responses read that way but I don't think that. I personally think people are crazy for having that many points.
I think I would be disappointed with any hunt I waited 26-33 years for.

There is a reason I ended up with 26 points in some states. I applied for multiple species in 8-10 states and could only go on 1 or 2 hunts/year. So I formulated both a short and long term application strategy long ago that got me in the field every year. It’s not like I sat at home for 26 years accumulating points. I drew something somewhere every year but 2021. Did I whine & cry that year? Hell no I took the opportunity to scout harder, even in a 90 degree heat wave. My consolation prize came in the form of a Boone & Crockett public land whitetail taken with my compound bow (not a crossgun), at home here in the Midwest. At no point did I have the desire to cheat some other hunter because I failed to draw that year.

 

[jt13]

Burning my 16 deer & 26 pronghorn points on CO hunts in 2023, which will put me at ground zero with the newbies. Then plan on targeting 3-5 point units afterwards if my health holds out. Just had a son move there with my two grand daughters so this is my chance to visit them.

Think in the current system those granddaughters of yours will ever have the opportunity to hunt any of the 20+ point tags you drew in the last few years?

 

[Zim]

Think in the current system those granddaughters of yours will ever have the opportunity to hunt any of the 20+ point tags you drew in the last few years?

Lol I sure as hell wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on that! I could not get even one of my three sons interested in hunting. And they are all 30+ now, so unlikely to ever happen. All got sucked into video games and ended up with IT careers. Not complaining though happy they got good jobs. But hey, on a good note, they sure won’t be taking any of your precious tags.

 

[jt13]

Lol I sure as hell wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on that! I could not get even one of my three sons interested in hunting. And they are all 30+ now, so unlikely to ever happen. All got sucked into video games and ended up with IT careers. Not complaining though happy they got good jobs. But hey, on a good note, they sure won’t be taking any of your precious tags.

Ah, we I guess we will see if your "f*** you, I got mine" argument is a sustainable model for wildlife management and the future of western hunting

 

[Zim]

Ah, well I guess we will see if your "f*** you, I got mine" argument is a sustainable model for wildlife management and the future of western hunting.

No need to wait to see the sustainability of your system. It’s already proven itself.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Ah, we I guess we will see if your "f*** you, I got mine" argument is a sustainable model for wildlife management and the future of western hunting

If I may add a few things this conversation has proven.
It has already proven that the new minimum age for top tags in a preference point state is in your late 30s, soon to be 40s, 50s, ? IF you start applying out of state as a pre teen. (I blame my father for not getting me in at 12yrs old).
In reality the majority started applying in their early 30s and most of the best tags are going to a bunch of old men with failing health who can't hardly enjoy the hunt. They feel entitled to a tag and will take a tone (as if your basketball rolled onto their lawn) when you talk about fixing an obviously broken system.

I can all but guarantee the youngest hunter in Zims targeted 61 archery tag will be knocking on 50yrs.
Its a good thing 61 has a lot of easy terrain.
They can all sit around the campfire and wonder why their grandchildren aren't interested in hunting and laugh about how a bunch of 30yr old newbs with 10 points were trying to screw them out of this tag by changing a system none of them asked for.