ID F&G Survey

[BuzzH]

This year I am hunting Idaho on the OTC tag.

Next year, I probably wont hunt Idaho.

If there was a point system, I would buy the $150 license, pay the $15 app fee, and pay a $20 point fee to increase my chances in the future for drawing moose.

If there is no point system, Idaho does not get the $185 dollars for someone who is not going to hunt there.

As far as a no points system,

Wyoming does not have one for residents.

Antelope Unit 92 15% chance of drawing

Deer Unit 102 4.3% chance of drawing

Elk Unit 100 2% chance of drawing

I know people that have gone 8-16 years between drawing antelope at 15% or so draw odds. A bonus point system would reward those who have applied with an additional chance each year, it is still no guarantee of drawing a tag - but it still rewards those who do not draw with something rather than nothing.

Totally disagree with nearly everything in that post. Wyoming Residents have great opportunities. If people are dumb enough to apply for 2% draw odds in an elk unit that doesn't even produce the quality of bulls found in general areas...let them. Same with antelope and deer units.

It always amazes me that people want to create a point system based on a handful of over-hyped tags that have total chit draw odds.

Yeah, don't be surprised if you don't draw a tag in areas with 2-15% draw odds, a first year course in remedial statistics will explain your woes...

It would be one thing if there wasn't unlimited general tags available in WY for bull elk and buck deer...or if a person couldn't hunt 2 buck pronghorn a year.

If a Resident is bitching about a lack of quality hunting due to lack of drawing tags...they don't deserve to hunt in Wyoming and obviously aren't very serious hunters.

Good grief.

 

[Whiptail]

what do you think would happen if you presented these ideas to members of the Farm Bureau? You get to focus. I have to listen to everyone.
Siddoway

Why would a Senator listen to an insurance company about how wildlife permits should be issued?

 

[smarandr]

Why would a Senator listen to an insurance company about how wildlife permits should be issued?

It's not just an insurance company. ID Farm Bureau holds a ton of sway on Idaho politics, and they have a stance on pretty much everything.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Totally disagree with nearly everything in that post. Wyoming Residents have great opportunities. If people are dumb enough to apply for 2% draw odds in an elk unit that doesn't even produce the quality of bulls found in general areas...let them. Same with antelope and deer units.

It always amazes me that people want to create a point system based on a handful of over-hyped tags that have total chit draw odds.

Yeah, don't be surprised if you don't draw a tag in areas with 2-15% draw odds, a first year course in remedial statistics will explain your woes...

It would be one thing if there wasn't unlimited general tags available in WY for bull elk and buck deer...or if a person couldn't hunt 2 buck pronghorn a year.

If a Resident is bitching about a lack of quality hunting due to lack of drawing tags...they don't deserve to hunt in Wyoming and obviously aren't very serious hunters.

Good grief.

Well,

Someone made this video for a reason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h7Hlr9Ztag)

I assume that you don't live here or work with the people that live here. I assume that if you did you would hear a story of a different tune. Having lived in other states with less overall hunting opportunity, I can see where you are coming from.

I can see your a point with deer and elk. There are a lot of other worse case scenarios.
Resident draw odds are bad for deer and bad-ok for elk. It's true that you can get an OTC unlimited tag, but there should be opportunity to build points up to the max for deer and elk.

I will disagree whole heartedly with pronghorn. A non resident can be assured a tag in the vast public land units Western Wyoming before a resident will. The two bucks that you mention can be a 5 -7 hour drive away in Units in eastern Wyoming with checkerboard public land at best and most likely you'll have to pay a trespass fee. Which in a state with so much opportunity is strange. One person at work waited 9 years to draw a unit 89 and that unit takes a NR 5 years to draw. The unit has 23% draw odds for residents. Point being the units with ample public land have low draw odds for residents.

I'll disagree on the notion that people in Wyoming are not serious hunters, because they do not look at the draw odds and select units based on draw odds. The draw odds to me are a part of the game, but I apply in a slough of other states. To the average hunter the area means more than the draw odds, people want to pick an area they are familiar with. They want to pick an area where they don't have to worry about the boundaries of public and private land.

Back to the subject matter, as a Non Resident in Idaho. I feel like I would be more inclined to apply to Idaho more often if there were points. This year I applied for points only in Nevada and Arizona, because I didn't have an intent on drawing a tag there. I gave the hunters there ~$200 of my income for an opportunity for the future. I would do the same in Idaho every year if the system was changed to some sort of a points system. I imagine there are some NR hunters that are like me in this notion, the guys that won't make it to Idaho - but would like to build towards a hunt in the future.

 

[jryoung]

Well,

I assume that you don't live here or work with the people that live here. I assume that if you did you would hear a story of a different tune. Having lived in other states with less overall hunting opportunity, I can see where you are coming from.

pro-tip: search back through Buzz's posts and his hunting exploits, assuming is a bad idea.

Back to the subject matter, as a Non Resident in Idaho. I feel like I would be more inclined to apply to Idaho more often if there were points. This year I applied for points only in Nevada and Arizona, because I didn't have an intent on drawing a tag there. I gave the hunters there ~$200 of my income for an opportunity for the future. I would do the same in Idaho every year if the system was changed to some sort of a points system. I imagine there are some NR hunters that are like me in this notion, the guys that won't make it to Idaho - but would like to build towards a hunt in the future.

Have you seen Idaho's odds on the big three? I drew a moose tag in my first year of drawing simply because of the high odds. It is unlikely, I'll ever draw a MT moose tag but will still chase that dream even if it does not make financial sense. By limiting applications and making guys commit to a species it increases opportunity for everyone, not just the guys in first.

Throwing money into a ponzi scheme may seem like a good idea with delusional hopes that some day you'll get that dream hunt, but the reality is point creep is real, and it creates a disincentive to future hunters and eventually the pyramid will collapse.

 

[Outdoor Junkie]

You really have no idea who you are talking to, do you? If you have been paying attention at all, you would realize how poor this comment was...... search posts from Buzz in the hunting forums...... Buzz must be the luckiest guy on earth if your comments below are true. The guy has somehow managed to draw all the best tags every year.... that or else there are ample opportunities for resident hunters and your comments are complete B.S.

BTW, I've gone to eastern Wyoming 3 times for antelope and hunted in what had been a left over unit ( now it requires 1 point to draw). The first time we shot 3 antelope bucks and 4 does between 3 guys in 2 days. The second time we shot 6 antelope bucks and 3 mule deer bucks in 5 days only left one mule deer tag open and that guy missed on a nice one) and the third time, we shot 6 antelope bucks between 6 guys in 2 days. This was all on that crappy checker board land..... You don't need to pay trespass fees unless you don't want to have to do the research on where the accessible public land is and you don't want to get the GPS chip.

Well,

I assume that you don't live here or work with the people that live here. I assume that if you did you would hear a story of a different tune. Having lived in other states with less overall hunting opportunity, I can see where you are coming from.

I can see your a point with deer and elk. There are a lot of other worse case scenarios.
Resident draw odds are bad for deer and bad-ok for elk. It's true that you can get an OTC unlimited tag, but there should be opportunity to build points up to the max for deer and elk.

I will disagree whole heartedly with pronghorn. A non resident can be assured a tag in the vast public land units Western Wyoming before a resident will. The two bucks that you mention can be a 5 -7 hour drive away in Units in eastern Wyoming with checkerboard public land at best and most likely you'll have to pay a trespass fee. Which in a state with so much opportunity is strange. One person at work waited 9 years to draw a unit 89 and that unit takes a NR 5 years to draw. The unit has 23% draw odds for residents. Point being the units with ample public land have low draw odds for residents.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

pro-tip: search back through Buzz's posts and his hunting exploits, assuming is a bad idea.



Have you seen Idaho's odds on the big three? I drew a moose tag in my first year of drawing simply because of the high odds. It is unlikely, I'll ever draw a MT moose tag but will still chase that dream even if it does not make financial sense. By limiting applications and making guys commit to a species it increases opportunity for everyone, not just the guys in first.

Throwing money into a ponzi scheme may seem like a good idea with delusional hopes that some day you'll get that dream hunt, but the reality is point creep is real, and it creates a disincentive to future hunters and eventually the pyramid will collapse.

I can see the error of my ways, in assuming.

When you assume, you only make an ass of yourself.

I'll eat the crow on the buzz comment.

I have put in for the last 3 years for moose in Idaho, I guess I'm not that lucky.

I will agree on the Ponzi scheme as it relates to preference points, especially in 100/0 and 75/25. The Utah 50/50 system is quite fair. Rewarding those who have put in for the longest and still providing opportunity to those that do not have the max.

I do like Bonus point draws are a lottery and there is no guarantee that you will draw with the most points, but you are rewarded with an additional chance every year that you put in.

So, I think we might have to agree to disagree on the points system. I will let Idaho fish and game know my opinion as a NR hunter and I expect everyone else to do the same.

 

[MtnWest]

Siddoway is a real gem for the gem state. When is this doofus going to get the hint and go away?

If non residents knew how good OTC hunting can be and spent a little more effort learning an area instead of feeling entitled they would appreciate what Idaho and other states have to offer. Come hunt whenever you want and while you are buying a license throw your name in the hat of the fairest system of all.

If you live 1k miles away, can't scout and never been in a unit please don't think because it took "points" to draw that you are going to kill a buck or bull that graces the cover of your favorite magazine.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

You really have no idea who you are talking to, do you? If you have been paying attention at all, you would realize how poor this comment was...... search posts from Buzz in the hunting forums...... Buzz must be the luckiest guy on earth if your comments below are true. The guy has somehow managed to draw all the best tags every year.... that or else there are ample opportunities for resident hunters and your comments are complete B.S.

BTW, I've gone to eastern Wyoming 3 times for antelope and hunted in what had been a left over unit ( now it requires 1 point to draw). The first time we shot 3 antelope bucks and 4 does between 3 guys in 2 days. The second time we shot 6 antelope bucks and 3 mule deer bucks in 5 days only left one mule deer tag open and that guy missed on a nice one) and the third time, we shot 6 antelope bucks between 6 guys in 2 days. This was all on that crappy checker board land..... You don't need to pay trespass fees unless you don't want to have to do the research on where the accessible public land is and you don't want to get the GPS chip.

I do agree there are opportunities like that and I think NR's are more prone to seek those opportunities.

With residents (I associate with), it is either they draw the unit they want or they do not hunt. So, giving those people an opportunity to build would make sense to me.

 

[smarandr]

If non residents knew how good OTC hunting can be

You're obviously wrong on that one. As proof when was the last time you remember seeing OYOA/Fresh Tracks do an episode in Idaho?

 

[TheTone]

I'm hoping we can avoid a point system here and will express that when I get a chance on the survey. Simply put for one persons odds to increase another persons odds have to decrease, not much "fair" about that system. I'm buying points in a couple other states and really dislike it; who knows when or if I'll get a shot at having enough for my odds to be anything beyond bad with point systems that are very top heavy with tons of people way ahead of me. If I were king for a day over Idaho's draw system I would like to see a two year wait on antlered controlled hunts instead of the current one year and a one year wait on either sex tags instead of the current no wait; that would actually do something to improve odds unlike a point system where you just get to throw money at a dream idea that you are getting better odds.

 

[Flatland Crusoe]

I do agree there are opportunities like that and I think NR's are more prone to seek those opportunities.

With residents (I associate with), it is either they draw the unit they want or they do not hunt. So, giving those people an opportunity to build would make sense to me.

Any almost any state the DIY NR's likely care way more than 99% of the locals about hunting and seeking out good opportunities. From the locals I've run into hunting Wyoming and those I worked with in the past walking more than over the hill from the truck for a shot while antelope hunting is too far.

Wyoming holds 2/3rds of the Pronghorns in this country and 1/600th the human population so most everyone is driving a ways to hunt them. Complaining you couldn't shoot one off your back porch isn't really relevant for most people.

There are a lot of things I could think of complaining about living in Wyoming, but lack of hunting opportunity is not one of them. You guys have been out in the wind too long.

 

[BuzzH]

With residents (I associate with), it is either they draw the unit they want or they do not hunt. So, giving those people an opportunity to build would make sense to me.

That's tough luck and their choice to not hunt if they don't draw "their" tag. Any Resident that isn't hunting buck deer, bull elk, and buck pronghorn each year is doing so by CHOICE.

There is no need to start a point system that completely screws resident youth hunters and those without max points...all over a few units that have poor draw odds. Many of those units aren't even the best hunting.

It makes no sense to create a point system to help Residents draw a unit 100 elk tag, a 102 deer tag, or an 89 pronghorn tag.

Not sure why Residents have an entitlement attitude toward drawing tags with low draw odds...that's what really makes no sense.

 

[idelkslayer]

I wonder if the guys who are buying points in multiple states, and spending several hundred dollars per year to do so, realize that if they put that money in a jar they could pay for a hunting trip to Alaska or a guided trip in the state of their choice long before they really have a chance of drawing a tag.

I am opposed to implementing a points system in Idaho. The only people I hear that want one are those who have been putting in on low odds drawings for 15-20 years. Fact if you put in on a deer or elk tag with 2% draw odds you're not allowed to complain until it has been 50 years.

There are many more options that can used to improve draw odds in Idaho. Longer wait periods, limit each applicant to one species.

Often we hear the complaint that somebody knows somebody who drew a hard to get tag twice while they have been putting in for 15 years and never drawn and that's not fair. Maybe some of these very hard to draw units need to be treated like the trophy OIL hunts. Once you harvest on that tag you can never apply for it again. That is essentially what would happen with points anyway. After you draw, whether you harvest or not, you go to the bottom of the point pool and it's 15-20 years before you draw again.

I also hate the perception by NR that a tag has to be a draw tag or the hunt area is not worth their time. Many of Idaho's OTC tags are as good or better than many of the draw tags in other states.

I also find it hard to believe that hunters in other states are satisfied with the points systems at home when each and every hunting season I see hundreds of Utah, Oregon, Washington and Nevada hunters coming to Idaho to hunt the OTC units.

 

[ida homer]

You're obviously wrong on that one. As proof when was the last time you remember seeing OYOA/Fresh Tracks do an episode in Idaho?

The show is dropping the ball on that one. You compare Idaho to every state and it's a no brainer where I'd be hunting if I was a NR, wanting to hunt every year. It would be MT, ID or WY, probably in that order, depending on species.

 

[Steelhead]

Yes...let's rip Randy. OYOA should do shows in Idaho but he obviously has some other states in which he's dialed in and there's only so much time in Sept-Nov.

My thoughts on da 'ho. I freakin love it. I drew a good elk tag my first year putting in but I love it because of the OTC deer and elk opportunities. I'm wagering that the hunting can be as good in Idaho OTC units and many of the middle of the road draws throughout the west.

On points:
1. I'll fight it but if I/we lose I'll buy em
2. It'll still be Idaho and when you draw your super duper tag you'll still have to work for it
3. I think it'll be basically the same system for the first 10 or so years
3a. (clarification) for the first many many years there will be the vast majority of people with "max points". Everybody will have
Year one: 1
Year two: 1 or 2
Year three: 1, 2, or 3
etc
4. The increase in chances to draw will likely be <0.5% per year for those with max points what I mean (just making this up) is that say max points are 4...
Draw odds for unit XYZ will be**:
2.25% w/4 points
2% w/3 points
1.75% w/2 points
1.5% w/1 point
**It would likely be much less difference between point teirs
Is that really a difference we care about? Want to promote? Want to pay for?

5. Idaho could be welcome to Washington where when you have 10 points your odds are crappy, when you have 20 points your odds are crappy...oh joy

 

[ida homer]

Agreed, sounds like a mess for no real improvement ^^ We have the 2nd longest general seasons out west, I'm sure he could squeeze us in somewhere.

Leave it the same. The majority of residents have said in every survey that we want the opportunity to hunt every year > trophy animals. Most of those people are not hiking far and shooting the first meat buck they see (me this year).

So come scout each weekend all summer as if it were a primo tag, shoot a 170 buck every year, on a tag you can buy from wal mart on your way to camp.

That's what you call having your cake and eating it too.

 

[orion23]

I would like to hear 'valid' arguments against bonus points on controlled hunts. id like to know why everyone is so against them? i for one would like them.

 

[Steelhead]

Mr Obvious see below...

3. I think it'll be basically the same system for the first 10 or so years
3a. (clarification) for the first many many years there will be the vast majority of people with "max points". Everybody will have
Year one: 1
Year two: 1 or 2
Year three: 1, 2, or 3
etc
4. The increase in chances to draw will likely be <0.5% per year for those with max points what I mean (just making this up) is that say max points are 4...
Draw odds for unit XYZ will be**:
2.25% w/4 points
2% w/3 points
1.75% w/2 points
1.5% w/1 point
**It would likely be much less difference between point teirs
Is that really a difference we care about? Want to promote? Want to pay for?

 

[Steelhead]

Oh sorry. Were you calling my arguments invalid?

To be clear you would like a bonus point system in Idaho so that you can buy bonus points for 10 years ($2000) and then have a 7% chance of drawing as opposed to leaving everything the same and having a 5% chance of drawing, correct?