Colo Point Banking

[jimss]

I hate to break it to you Buzz but without a pref pt/bonus system I'm almost certain I wouldn't have drawn near the number of tags I have over the years in Wyo, Colo, UT, and NV. Buzz you drew a desert sheep tag in NV a couple years ago so I know you apply in other states. I wonder what your odds for drawing a desert sheep tag in your lifetime without a bonus pt system?

As I stated in my other post....thank God Wyo has nonres pref pts for deer, elk, and antelope! I've draw so many fantastic tags over the years that I hardly drew before Wyo started a pref pt system for nonres. In fact, I've drawn a lot more Wyo tags now that I'm a nonres than I ever did as a Wyo resident! If Wyo decides to shaft nonres with a smaller % of tags it's obvious that draw odds will drop considerably for nonres w/or without a pt system.

I have no complaints about the Colo deer draw system as it is. There are currently fantastic deer units that Buzz, I, or anyone can draw every year or 2 if desired. Some of them may take a lot of research, scouting, and boot leather but there is 170 to 190 bucks available in units that hardly take a pref pt to draw! They aren't under every tree and it may take a lifetime to luck into bucks that size but it's currently possible to draw units like that every year in Colo. If the system is changed to point banking it will be the end of easy draw units in Colo. Buzz is correct that systems often change mid-stream...some of the changes are good and others bad. Point banking would be a change for the worse!

LopeHunter, I invite you to take a look at the NV draw stats site. It may open your eyes to what a really good bonus pt system offers. Other than high demand units that are advertised yearly by Eastman's and Carter in NV there are a bunch of units that actually have relatively good draw odds. If you look in detail at the NV draw stats it will open your eyes that the guys that have the most bonus pts aren't always the ones that draw tags. In many units there is an even proportion of applicants that draw with fewer pts vs those with max pts.

LopeHunter, if you want to apply in a state like Idaho that has no pref/bonus pt system and you have to purchase an expensive license to apply that may be a great choice as well. If I was spending that kind of $ to apply in a state year after year I would hope I would stand a little better chance of drawing than those that have only applied 1 year?

 

[JohnCushman]

So, point systems are only good when you think they are and in what manner you think is proper? You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's also not CBA's fault that only a handful of people responded. Such is life. Just like more people in America vote for American Idol that for POTUS...but people feel more than free to complain about the POTUS. CBA did their job by putting out a survey for ALL to answer, but only a handful took the time to respond. Oh well...those who responded agreed with point banking and there's nothing you can do about it. Those that chose to vote had their voices heard. And by the way, my name is John, not Josh...

 

[BuzzH]

jims,

No I didnt draw a desert tag in NV, matter of fact, I've applied for Nevada a long time and have never drawn a single tag of any kind.

I drew a NR sheep tag in Arizona, RANDOM TAG as I was about 14 years behind the max point holders. In a preference system I would have never drawn.

The fact is jims, you rally around point systems then cry when they morph into something that doesnt fit your agenda and lessens YOUR chances at a tag.

Welcome to the wonderful world of point systems.

BTW, I dont want to hear your crying about Colorado point banking, lots of hunters are in favor of it and will benefit from the change.

Too bad if you dont benefit from it, point systems arent put in place to make your personal situation better.

Now you have a belly full of why point systems suck major ass...and precisely why I dont want them in WY.

 

[Zach]

Positive - they can still draw the tag, but they don't get any preference

I guess I was thinking of this section:

F. Youth Licenses
1. The Division and the ranch may formulate and implement youth hunting opportunities on any ranch through Division approved youth hunting programs. The Division must approve the youth hunting program on the ranch prior to any season or license allocation for such youth hunts.
2. A maximum of 15% of the total number for deer, elk, pronghorn, or black bear licenses allocated for a ranch may be allocated as youth hunting licenses on each ranch, over and above the total number of licenses allocated for a ranch.
3. Youth hunting seasons may occur at any time within the broad parameters for seasons within the Ranching For Wildlife program.
4. Youth licenses shall be distributed to individual youth hunters by mechanisms of the approved youth hunting program on the ranch. Youth licenses shall not count as either private or public licenses for purposes of calculating the relative share of other licenses allocated for the ranch.

http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/Ranching/RFWGuidelines.pdf


Back to your regularly scheduled skirmish...

 

[JohnCushman]

You should see the argument he started on bowsite about this..lol

 

[Zach]

You should see the argument he started on bowsite about this..lol

Lots of folks pissing and moaning these days....

and yes, I've seen it. What is your handle over there? Mines obvious.

 

[JohnCushman]

misfitmedic, same as Archery Talk

 

[jimss]

Buzz, your response is just as expected! I might as well be talking to a brick wall! I actually have quite a few pref pts in Colo for a number of species that would fit nicely into the point banking scheme. I know I'm talking to a brick wall but I'm not considering myself nor my own agenda when trying to rid Colo of point banking. I'm considering young and new hunters starting out, those that like to hunt units quite often, as well as those that decide they like to wait to draw high demand units. Point banking won't help anyone long term!

The only people point banking will help out are those that have been blinding applying each year for pref pts and haven't figured out until now that they likely won't draw the highest demand units in Colorado in their lifetime.. I'm not sure if you can see the writing on the wall but it's pretty evident to others what point banking would do in Colorado. I'm obviously not one of the selfish people that is for point banking that believes that they will draw 2 or 3 tags with point banking and care less about anyone else that wants to draw tags in future years. Believe it or not Buzz I would like to see our hunting heritage continue for more years than I'll be hiking the hills! Believe it or not Buzz I care about young and new hunters loosing interest in the great sport of hunting because they can't draw tags. Point banking will do just that!

 

[jimss]

Johncushman, you are spinning circles around the questions I asked about the CBA! Can you honestly say that the CBA is representing the majority of bowhunters in Colorado when they were in favor of taking tags away from the public pool of tags and issuing them in the landowner draw pool?

Please answer that one question?

 

[JohnCushman]

You're just looking for a pissing contest, and I'm not going to play. The CBA represented the majority of the bowhunters who responded. I answered that already. It's not my fault or anyone else's fault that other bowhunters couldn't take 5 minutes out of their lives to fill out the survey. If they didn't respond, then they shouldn't complain if something passes that they don't agree with. I, for one, took the survey, and also voted in favor of point banking. I don't honestly give a rat's ass how you feel about that. Now, go pick your argument with someone else.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm obviously not one of the selfish people that is for point banking that believes that they will draw 2 or 3 tags with point banking and care less about anyone else that wants to draw tags in future years. Believe it or not Buzz I would like to see our hunting heritage continue for more years than I'll be hiking the hills! Believe it or not Buzz I care about young and new hunters loosing interest in the great sport of hunting because they can't draw tags. Point banking will do just that!

Preference point systems of all kinds do the exact same things that you're whining about with point banking...FACT. You're a raging hypocrit when it comes to point systems. You champion those that benefit your agenda and then cry when they dont.

Nothing is more fair to everyone than a random draw.

 

[JohnCushman]

At least with a points system you can somewhat plan your hunting season out for the fall. I, for one, like the idea of a points system.

 

[BuzzH]

John, I agree...right up until quotas drop and point creep happens. Then you can "plan" on absolutely nothing.

Going to be a lot of long faces in WY this year who have it all "planned out" with their points...

 

[jimss]

Buzz do you think the CBA is doing a great job of representing Colorado bowhunters when they lobbied for decreasing the number of tags offered to public hunters and increasing the number of landowner tags issued in the Colorado draw? This will happen in Colorado starting in 2015 thanks to the CBA's "poll!":

Buzz if you want the exact numbers it was only 520 out of 2317 CBA members. Would you say a 520 response is a reputable sample of the thousands of bowhunters and hunters in Colorado? I believe you would be doing some "whining" if bowhunters tried to convert public tags to landowner tags in Wyo?

Johncushman, The point I'm trying to make is that the CBA is falsely representing the majority of hunters in Colorado with a sample so small! The same exact thing happened with point banking!

 

[JohnCushman]

I know I'll probably never draw my first choice deer tag with the point creep. I've only got a 25% chance this year, but I always seem to be a point behind...lol That's why I'm smart about my second and third choice tags. I'm worried about my WY antelope tag this year. I was 100% draw odds with my number of points, but I think people are going to start dumping points and Eastman's made my unit a 'blue chip' unit this year. So, yeah, sometimes you can't always count on points, but I can still hunt on second and third choice tags. And Jims...when the 'majority' of bow hunters can't get off their asses and fill out a 5 minute survey, they get what they get.

 

[jimss]

JohnCushman, The years the herds are doing well and tag numbers are up there is less interest in the pref/bonus pt debate. With intense winterkill and drought the past few years tag numbers are low and point creep higher than normal.

I'm thinking the same thing about Wyo this year for antelope. According to antelope quota projections tag numbers will be decreased again this year..at least in the southern 1/2 of Wyo where I normally hunt. Unfortunately I have a feeling 2nd and 3rd choices may be slim pickings this year. I drew another Wyo elk tag this year. This will be my 3rd limited elk tag in around 10 years....which is why I like the Wyo pref pt system! I could have drawn a decent Wyo muley tag again this year but am waiting for the herds to recover. Wyo's nonres pref pt system has always been good to me and my buddies!

 

[BuzzH]

Wyo's nonres pref pt system has always been good to me and my buddies!

All about you....oh, and your buddies.

Your arguement against point banking is a strawman, you dont care about youth and new hunters.

If you did, you wouldnt want a point system at all.

 

[Mudranger1]

Buzz if you want the exact numbers it was only 520 out of 2317 CBA members. Would you say a 520 response is a reputable sample of the thousands of bowhunters and hunters in Colorado? I believe you would be doing some "whining" if bowhunters tried to convert public tags to landowner tags in Wyoming!

Now here is my thoughts on the CBA. IMO they have outdated rules and an overwhelming "traditional" board that has rules set it place to keep with what they want to happen. For instance, they sent out a survey on lighted nocks. Overwhelming response was for them but because the response wasn't a high enough percentage of overall members the board got to choose what they wanted to support. Hence they chose to not support it this past year. Now here is where I agree with Cush in that those members that choose to respond and be heard should be the ones recognized. And those that don't shouldn't cry about anything. Just like any other voting in the country. I know the CBA does a lot of great things so you won't hear me say they are a bad organization but I do think they should be listening to the vocal members. Often people join these affiliations just to support with money and don't want to be actively involved and that's all fine and good but the CBA board members are using that to further their personal agendas. Change will happen as more people realize and start to see they aren't being heard.

 

[Jorgy]

I guess I was thinking of this section:

F. Youth Licenses
1. The Division and the ranch may formulate and implement youth hunting opportunities on any ranch through Division approved youth hunting programs. The Division must approve the youth hunting program on the ranch prior to any season or license allocation for such youth hunts.
2. A maximum of 15% of the total number for deer, elk, pronghorn, or black bear licenses allocated for a ranch may be allocated as youth hunting licenses on each ranch, over and above the total number of licenses allocated for a ranch.
3. Youth hunting seasons may occur at any time within the broad parameters for seasons within the Ranching For Wildlife program.
4. Youth licenses shall be distributed to individual youth hunters by mechanisms of the approved youth hunting program on the ranch. Youth licenses shall not count as either private or public licenses for purposes of calculating the relative share of other licenses allocated for the ranch.


Back to your regularly scheduled skirmish...

that there is funny (Back to your regularly scheduled skirmish)

Zach - the hunts you have there are hunts that get put together after the drawings for the regular tags (and RFW) are done. I have only seen these hunts put out for youths where you kids can write a report, or "put thier name in a hat" drawing or something like that. Preference points aren't used.

 

[Steelhead]

Are we over complicating things a bit.

1. Throw thousands of dollars at your choice of states December-June
2. Be randomly disappointed throughout the year
3. Receive refund checks as small consolation for your failure
4. Maybe, just maybe, draw a tag or two
5. Hunt general seasons
6. Repeat