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Arizona Deadline - February 9th

Big Fin

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For those of you who seem to forget things, I thought I would post this reminded for you. No reason to miss the AZ deadline for elk and antelope. AZ has a "RECEIVED BY" deadline, not a postmarked deadline. And, make sure you mail it to the correct address.

It amazes me how many people look at the draw odds published by research services and think they have a chance to draw, when they actually have no chance to draw. In reality, AZ has become a PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM for NRs, when it comes to premium units where the 10% NR quota fills in the first pass, or what is called the 20% Bonus Pass.

Here is an example:

Using Unit 9 archery tags in 2009, the 10% NR cap was filled in the 20% pass by the time it got through the people with 14 points.

If you had 15 of more points as a NR, you could draw the tag. If you were at the 14 level, you were not guaranteed the tag as an NR, but as a resident you were guaranteed the tag with 14 points. In fact, residents were guaranteed the tag with 13 points, and some residents got the tag in the 20% bonus pass with 12 points.

Since the NR quota was filled in the 20% bonus pass, anyone with less than 14 points who had Unit 9 archery as a choice on their app, wasted one of their first two choices.

There were 9 NRs with 14 points last year, who did not draw in the 20% pass or the 1st/2nd choice pass. So, this year, they will have 15 points, and if they all apply for Unit 9 again, the NR quota (10% of 100 = 10 tag NR quota) is going to be almost filled with that group who have 15 points.

There were 21 NRs who were in the 13 point pool for Unit 9 last year, none of whom drew. They will have 14 this year, and if things stay the same as last year, only 1 of them will draw before the 10% NR quota is filled. Anyone with 13 or less will not draw, and the odds of being that 1 person who draws with 14 points will be about 7%.

This same scenario holds true for most any of the premium units that the research services recommend. I understand why AZ did the 20% bonus pass rule, but for the premium tags, whether elk, deer, etc., those units are preference point situations for NRs.

Here is how you can tell if your unit is really a Preference Point unit for NRs. Go to this two report and look at the 2009 hunt codes (hopefully you kept your 2009 regs so you know what hunt code is the unit you are considering).

20% Bonus Pass Report - It is the 20% bonus pass report, by hunt code that shows what tags were drawn in the first pass, where 20% of the tags drawn by those with the highest bonus points.

You will see what point level was the place where 100% of the first choice apps were no longer drawn. That is where the NR 10% quota got filled, and any tags awarded to those with lower point totals represent tags allocated to residents not subject to the 10% draw.

My point is, don't waste your apps on units where you have absolutely no chance of drawing, even though the simplified odds shown by research services make you think you have a chance. Reality is, if you aren't in the highest point totals, you don't have a chance in the premium units, if things stay similar to the historical trends of NR applicants.

For a quick overview of AZ drawing process, here is a link to our Arizona Resources Page.

Here is a link to the simplified AZ drawing odds.

Good luck. See you in AZ this year :). :D
 
Fin,

I did not quite follow "You will see what point level was the place where 100% of the first choice apps were no longer drawn. That is where the NR 10% quota got filled, and any tags awarded to those with lower point totals represent tags allocated to residents not subject to the 10% draw."

you are talking about the 20% bonus pass report, I presume.

Again, and a little slower...How do you know for certain that the nonres "up to 10% allocation" is used up at the point level where 100% of the applicants (res plus nonres) failed to draw. The report lumps res and nonres so it it not possible to see when nonres achieved their 10% quota. If you can always see the end of the line for nonres in the bonus pass table, that would suggest that no nonresidents draw elk tags in the 1-2 pass table that occurs after the bonus pass.

Obviously I am confused. Enlighten me if possible.

Also you simplified odds weblink shows some chance at lower point levels for unit 9, as an example. That contradicts what you said in the initial post for this thread?

Important stuff. Thanks for putting this on here. Nobody wants to put in for a zero odds choice. Just give me 1% and I am happy!

What would be useful is a table showing which premium units/hunts had nonres tags available after the bonus pass. PM that :)
 
Fin,

I did not quite follow "You will see what point level was the place where 100% of the first choice apps were no longer drawn. That is where the NR 10% quota got filled, and any tags awarded to those with lower point totals represent tags allocated to residents not subject to the 10% draw."

you are talking about the 20% bonus pass report, I presume.

Again, and a little slower...How do you know for certain that the nonres "up to 10% allocation" is used up at the point level where 100% of the applicants (res plus nonres) failed to draw. The report lumps res and nonres so it it not possible to see when nonres achieved their 10% quota. If you can always see the end of the line for nonres in the bonus pass table, that would suggest that no nonresidents draw elk tags in the 1-2 pass table that occurs after the bonus pass.

I am talking about where 100% of the first choice apps failed to draw, and yet others with lower point totals do draw. Once that happens, the only reason the people with higher point totals did not draw their first choice is because the NR 10% quota has been met.


Example (Yes, I am talking about the 20% Pass report):

Unit 9 Archery from last year:

2 people had 16 points. Both drew in the 20% pass.

3 people had 15 points. All drew in the 20% pass.

16 people had 14 points, and 10 of them had it as a first choice. Only 7 of these 16 people drew, so not all of the 10 first choice people drew. After the tags allocated to those with 16 and 15 points, there were still 15 tags left in the 20% bonus pass, so if the NR quota had not been met, all 10 first choice apps would have been filled, and many of the second choice.

24 people had 13 points, and 18 of them had it as a first choice. There were still 8 tags left in the 20% bonus pass coming into this level, but only 3 of them drew the tag.

The reason the first choice applicants in the 14 and 13 point level did not draw in the 20% pass, yet people with fewer points did draw, is the fact that the NR quota had been filled by the time "their number came up" and thus the remaining tags in the 20% bonus pass were given to resident applicants with even fewer points.

Thus, for last year, Unit 9 archery was really a Preference Point draw for NRs, and only those NRs with 14+ points were guaranteed the tag.

And, since the 10% NR quota was met at this level, there were no NR tags left to be allocated in the next draw, which is the 1st-2nd choice pass.

So people with less than 14 points had absolutely no chance for a Unit 9 archery tag. Anyone who put that down as a choice last year, with less than 14 points, wasted one of the two choices on their AZ app.

This holds true for every one of the early rifle and early muzzleloader hunts, and many of the really good archery units, such as Units 1, 9, and 10. For the sake of my odds, I probably shouldn't be making this public knowledge.

This takes more work and analysis, but I find it strange that research services are not telling their subscribers about this fact. I want to know if I am wasting my chances on a tag that I have absolutely no chance of drawing (unless NR application trends chance significantly from the previous year, which doesn't happen).

Obviously, I have too much time on my hands.


Also you simplified odds weblink shows some chance at lower point levels for unit 9, as an example. That contradicts what you said in the initial post for this thread?

Yes, that is simplified odds. If you read the warning on the AZ odds home page, it says this is the odds without regard to the 10% rule, as AZ does not break out the res/non-res stats. It is what your odds are, assuming the 10% NR quota has not been met. This is what all odds systems provide.
 
"And here you sit, thinking. Well, Ricky Bobby is not a thinker. Ricky Bobby is a driver. He is a doer. And that's what you need to do. You don't need to think. You need to drive. You need speed. You need to go out there, and you need to rev your engine. You need to fire it up".

"Well, Dinkshooter is not a thinker. Dinkshooter is a hunter. He is a doer. And that's what you need to do. You don't need to think. You need to hunt".

My $595 and 12 points are going to AZ for unit 9 archery. I don't care if I don't draw. I am not backing down now. 1 and only choice, I'll be your test sample.
 
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My fate is sealed. My point-only application is already in their greedy little hands.
 
I hope my fate is sealed with another crappy general tag...and an antelope permit wouldnt suck either.

Arizona has been pretty good to me the last couple years...dont want to break the streak.
 
Great explanation Fin. Thanks. My apps were sent in last week. I applied but with few points I have little or no chance of drawing. I agree with Buzz a lope tag would be great.
 
I drew a long shot lope tag 3 years ago, and burned my deer points in 08, its time for elk points to fall !!! i can feel it!
 
BillyGoat, I'm thinking that they are probably not out yet. Usually takes quite a while for the fall draw reports to come out.
 
They should have spring 2009 available at least, but I can't find anything. I didn't care until recently... I'm one of the few in the max BP pool for turkey and want to calculate when I'll be drawing that Gould's tag. :D

If there are <5 tags for a given hunt (specifically for turkey -- not sheep/buffalo which I know is 20% of total tags issued), does that mean there are no 20% BP tags issued and the first pass is skipped? I'm assuming that's the case because G&F always likes to round down. :) Anyone in the know on this one....?
 
Gotcha. Good question about the spring pass reports.

It seems that with sheep tags, they issue 20% of the total tags available in the state to max point holders, rather than doing it by unit, right? Maybe they do something similar with Gould's? I don't know...I haven't really figured out exactly how they do sheep either.
 
It seems that with sheep tags, they issue 20% of the total tags available in the state to max point holders, rather than doing it by unit, right?
Yes, that is clearly spelled out in the draw process explanation.

Maybe they do something similar with Gould's?
I wish... but I'm almost certain it's not that way. If I had the pass reports, I'd know for sure. :)
 
Excellent analysis Big Fin. I checked all the units I wanted to draw and found I was wasting my time and using up cash. I applied for bonus points and will regroup for next year.
 
Gentlemen, you can try to play the points and so forth as a NR, but I am a residence of AZ (Born in Phx) for close to 50 years, and here is a example of my personal draw results: My last elk tag took me 24 years to get drawn maximum bonus points, second choice draw and I had been putting in for archery, muzzleloader, and rifle in various units just to get drawn. Antelope one archery tag in 35 years of applying. Deer, I have not been drawn for deer in the past 19 years. I wish AZGFD would offer premium hunts as other states do because as a residence I would be willing to pay double what a NR pays just to better my odds of being drawn. I do know how you feel as a NR, as I would like to thank the other western states for NR hunts, as I spend thousands of dollars every year in others states so I can hunt as I cannot get drawn in the state for which I was born!
 
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