4 year olds with guns

Ben Lamb · Jan 28, 2013

http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...cle_d7e19b5e-690e-11e2-b676-0019bb2963f4.html

DARBY – Taylor Wohlers was hunting before she could walk.

“Her dad would put her in a backpack and off they’d go,” said her mother, Jamie Wohlers. “She came to love big-game hunting from all those experiences she had with her dad.”

Last summer, the 10-year-old Darby girl traveled to Alaska to bag a black bear while being filmed by the Skull Bound TV production company.

She used a .300 Winchester Magnum to bag the bruin at 168 yards.

“I shot it at sunset,” Taylor said, while sitting in her dad’s taxidermy shop surrounded by full-body mountain lion mounts, trophy deer heads and a row of skulls arranged on top of the desk. “It was across this little river thingy.”

The bill:
http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2013/billhtml/SB0197.htm

Maybe I'm off base, but it seems like this bill is a bad idea. I can see how it would be abused by folks looking for that extra buck, encouraging unethical behavior, etc. Maybe I spend too much time with Posewitz as well because I've always felt that if a kid needed to kill something in order to want to hunt, then the adults in that kid's life weren't teaching them the proper respect for the game, the hunt and the weapons used to kill something.

I'm still struggling with this one. What do you guys think?

jryoung · Jan 28, 2013

Sen. Scott Boulanger, R-Darby, plans to introduce SB197, which would allow a person of any age to apply for an apprentice hunting certificate. That certificate would allow them to hunt with a mentor who was over 18 years of age.

Any age is going too far IMO. I started shooting at 5, and was tagging along hunting at 10. Like most I was raised with the utmost respect of guns and responsibility, but even under the age of 12 you're dealing with someone who doesn't have the capability comprehend the bigger picture.

Aside from that though, it looks like this bill is really just trying to get additional tags for Dads (and Moms). Think "little league" parents and others who push their kids hard because it's what they want.

---- · Jan 28, 2013

These documents are cryptography to me, is it allowing them to purchase big game licenses?

If so I'm very against. Twelve years old is plenty young enough. I don't think I was mature enough at twelve, honestly.

fowladdict · Jan 28, 2013

Some of my favorite memories were those I was just walking with my dad and grandpa. I couldn't carry a gun until i was 12 years old, and I still couldn't sleep the night before we went hunting. I think if a kid has to carry a gun while hunting to have fun, the parent isn't teaching them right.

Ben Lamb · Jan 28, 2013

Randy11 said:
These documents are cryptography to me, is it allowing them to purchase big game licenses?

If so I'm very against. Twelve years old is plenty young enough. I don't think I was mature enough at twelve, honestly.

So long as they have a mentor, yes, you can get a license the day after you're born.

Goldtip · Jan 28, 2013

Being born and raised in Montana and waited till age twelve to hunt, just like everyone else. Now live in Washington, where if you can pass hunters safety you can get a license, there is a shooting component to the test. Honestly I see guys taking their 8 year olds to the class and them passing, but I don't agree with it. Most kids that age just don't understand the full implications of their actions when pulling the trigger, jmho. I think this bill of being an "apprentice" hunter certainly could be abused, but probably mostly by guys who abuse the system anyway. Just seems like a bad bill to me as well Ben.

---- · Jan 28, 2013

Ben Lamb said:
So long as they have a mentor, yes, you can get a license the day after you're born.

Yeah, it's full on BS then.

I can already think of guys with a herd full of kids that would load them up in the SUV and drive around shooting deer until they had a buck for each kid.

Toadslayer · Jan 28, 2013

Did I miss out on something?

Section 5. Section 87-2-701, MCA, is amended to read:
"87-2-701. Special licenses. (1) An Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, an applicant who is 12 years of age or older or who will turn 12 years old before or during the season for which the license is issued and is the holder of a resident wildlife conservation license or a nonresident wildlife conservation license may apply for a special license that, in the judgment of the department, is to be issued and shall pay the following fees:
(a) moose--resident, $125; nonresident, $750;
(b) mountain goat--resident, $125; nonresident, $750;
(c) mountain sheep--resident, $125; nonresident, $750;
(d) antelope--resident, $14; nonresident, $200;
(e) grizzly bear--resident, $150; nonresident, $1,000;
(f) black bear--nonresident, $350;
(g) wild buffalo or bison--resident, $125; nonresident, $750.
(2) If a holder of a valid special grizzly bear license who is 12 years of age or older kills a grizzly bear, the person shall purchase a trophy license for a fee of $50 within 10 days after the date of the kill. The trophy license authorizes the holder to possess and transport the trophy.
(3) Except as provided in 87-5-302 for special grizzly bear licenses, special licenses must be issued in a manner prescribed by the department."

WV Hunter · Jan 28, 2013

There is a organization a local lawyer started called Beyond the Backyard and people post their kids outdoor photos all the time to their Facebook page. The other day there was a photo of a big ole 8 pointer, a big ole rifle and a little bitty 6 year old. The caption said he took his first buck. I really wanted to ask who actually pulled the trigger cause there was no way that little dude could hold that rifle let alone aim and shoot by his self.

At what age can a kid tote their own weapon in the field is likely to be another good old HT debate. I will say that at 9 years old I could hit 25/25 at the skeet range with my 20g jr Stevens shotgun and blast varmit steel targets all day with my .22 but I was at least 12 before my dad put me in the field with his 30/30 Winchester with open sights.

Ben Lamb · Jan 28, 2013

Toadslayer said:
Did I miss out on something?

That's a loaded question.

Licenses for Grizz have been in statute for a long time. They remain there so that we can have a season after delisting, which is still a few years away.

RUT JUNKEY · Jan 28, 2013

I can see some of the people abusing the h*** out of this. I'm all for getting them involved when they are young though. . .I killed my first deer with a muzz when I was 8 and with my bow at 10. I agree its all how the parents bring them up around firearms and such. . .I was taught by my Dad and Grandfather who took alot of time with me when I was young. We have the "apprentice" license here in Indiana and you can get one of those for 3 yrs I believe ( its a trial to see if it is something you want to do in life) then you have to buy the regular license. I think the intentions are good, but, always bad apples in the mix too!

Toadslayer · Jan 28, 2013

lots of abuse...."another tag for dad to fill"

noharleyyet · Jan 28, 2013

Simple Ben...just tack a morality rider on it. Happens all the time. (extreme sarcasm icon here)

Ben Lamb · Jan 28, 2013

So we're putting you in the support column?

noharleyyet · Jan 28, 2013

With freedom comes responsibility. Heck Ben, laws are for honest people, right? I try to be in the good parenting column.

Carrion Carrier · Jan 28, 2013

Although I agree with many of the statements above, that before 12 years old is too young for many children, I have two babies and would like to be able to decide for myself when it's appropriate for my children to start hunting based on their abilities/desires, not a state mandate.

twodot · Jan 28, 2013

Ben, you are indeed off base on this.
You are afraid that it would cause possible infractions with someone shooting a buck for their kid? What does that have to do with law abiding sportsmen? I sure as heck won't shoot anything for someone else.
You better stop letting the grocery sell beer and wine to, because someone might drink and drive.
Might encourage bad ethic's? I say it might encourage good ethics.
Probably shouldn't sell tags to spouse's or girlfriends either, wouldn't want to be a stumbling block to those who might break the law.
I personally know many very young hunters and shooters and have found them to be some of the best at safety and very ethical also. I can't necessarily say the same for most of the guys I know who are over 60 or so. Why not lobby for an upper age limit on hunting too.
This old bit about "I had to wait till I was 12" is so lame and selfish that it does not merit comment.
If you all have had bad experiences with young hunters who are being properly mentored, I would love to hear about them. twodot

thecrittergitter · Jan 28, 2013

Randy11 said:
Yeah, it's full on BS then.

I can already think of guys with a herd full of kids that would load them up in the SUV and drive around shooting deer until they had a buck for each kid.

Randy, this is a tough one for guys like me and a few other of my good buddies with kids. Your situation you described would likely happen with no question, but as you know there are already people that do that. Had a family back home that shot 5-6 elk a year and at least that many deer when I grew up and only the two brothers seemed to ever be in the woods.........

But, my boys are really taking up a passion for spending time in the woods and I look more forward to the day he can actually shoot himself than I do for my next animal. I'm not saying it should be a free for all which is what this leans more towards but I think kids should be able to take hunters safety anytime they want and ONCE THEY PASS it, they should be allowed to hunt with an adult.

So, I guess I'm saying I would like to see the age lowered but still think they need to pass hunters safety.............

BuzzH · Jan 28, 2013

twodot and critter...All I can tell you, is with cow elk being open for youth hunters on a general tag...many families I know made the comment, "well looks like we'll get at least one cow every year now".

The cow elk harvest went through the roof in the 100 series units...and I find it hard to believe that it was the 12-14 year olds pulling the trigger in 90% of the cases.

I think kids starting actually buying licenses and killing animals should remain at 12. Maybe open some youth opportunities for things like grouse at a younger age, but for big-game, keep it 12.

Its a prudent age limit IMO.

---- · Jan 28, 2013

BuzzH said:
I think kids starting actually buying licenses and killing animals should remain at 12. Maybe open some youth opportunities for things like grouse at a younger age, but for big-game, keep it 12.

Its a prudent age limit IMO.

Yeah I'd be alright with opening grouse and turkeys, and even possibly doe tags for some river bottom units. And there's tons of opportunities if you want to get your kid some trigger time already.

Matt I have no doubt you and your kids would use something like this correctly, I just have so little faith in average Joe anymore I would hate to see this pass. There's a guy that hunts my spot that shoots a couple bucks every year by bringing up relatives and filling their A tags. I have zero doubt if this went through he'd fill one for each of his kids as well. The resource is struggling, BS like this does nothing but hurt it, in my eyes.

4 year olds with guns

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