Zinke Proponent of BALANCED, Not Extremist Leadership.

[375H&H]

While this may sometimes be true, lots of times it is not. What most don't take into account is the price of finished lumber coming out of the mills. If logs costs are high in a weak lumber market all the logs in the west won't help a mill. In a perfect market with good numbers on housing starts and a strong economy ya it works. A soft market and $325 studs,,,not so much.

Yes, but that is just market dynamics and any industry fluctuates up and down. That is much different than the hand of government controlling the industry or not approving timber sales/mining leases that can make money. Industry spends on positive speculation and if the government is not giving industry x a positive feeling, investment goes down. Big difference.

 

[Nameless Range]

The chief function of public lands is not to make money. So many other factors at play...

 

[375H&H]

While this may sometimes be true, lots of times it is not. What most don't take into account is the price of finished lumber coming out of the mills. If logs costs are high in a weak lumber market all the logs in the west won't help a mill. In a perfect market with good numbers on housing starts and a strong economy ya it works. A soft market and $325 studs,,,not so much.

Also, price of finished lumber is very sensitive to proximity to a mill, so more mills cuts down on cost substantially.

 

[Gr8bawana]

So Zinke is a proponent of BALANCED, not extremist leadership? Really? Is that what he's doing by overturning the ban on coal mining on public land? By taking steps to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil exploration? Yeah we can believe him.
I'm sure we can believe that, just like trump supporters believed he was really going to "drain the swamp". All he's done is add more hungry alligators to the mix.
The only balance Zinke cares about is the balance in the republicans off-shore bank accounts. Nothing good for public land hunting will come from having Zinke as SOI.

 

[tjones]

Also, price of finished lumber is very sensitive to proximity to a mill, so more mills cuts down on cost substantially.

Not sure what you mean?

 

[tjones]

Ask any remaining mill operator in the NW what keeps them up at night. # one concern is stable supply of logs.

Ask any mill salesman trying to sell production at high enough numbers to cover costs. That will keep them up at night.

 

[375H&H]

Not sure what you mean?

Longer haul to a mill means the log cost will be higher to the mill does it not?

 

[tjones]

Longer haul to a mill means the log cost will be higher to the mill does it not?

Yep, but higher log costs doesn't mean the finished product can be sold for more.

 

[375H&H]

So Zinke is a proponent of BALANCED, not extremist leadership? Really? Is that what he's doing by overturning the ban on coal mining on public land? By taking steps to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil exploration? Yeah we can believe him.
I'm sure we can believe that, just like trump supporters believed he was really going to "drain the swamp". All he's done is add more hungry alligators to the mix.
The only balance Zinke cares about is the balance in the republicans off-shore bank accounts. Nothing good for public land hunting will come from having Zinke as SOI.

Now you did it, you mentioned coal mining and that is something that I will never back down from because that pays my salary, feeds my family, and allows me to enjoy the public lands nearby for hunting and recreating (and it likely provides your state with cheap, reliable electricity which we in the 1st world take for granted).

Let's look at Wyoming, number 1 coal producer in the nation, and by your logic a horrible place for public lands because they like to mine so much coal. Do you know what a blue ribbon school is? I didn't until I moved to Wyoming. Wyoming has blue ribbon schools all over the place, matter of fact in the 2 towns I have lived in nearly every school is blue ribbon. And they are funded by the coal mining that is in the state, which is sustainable, and profitable, for over 1000 years in the powder river basin. Wyoming is the epitome of conservation, they mine and develop where they need to, but also set aside vast national parks, wilderness areas, BLM, and national forest that are not mined. Let's not forget that mining in Wyoming is one of the best places to mine coal in the world with easy reclamation (no trees, relatively flat ground, etc), vast amount, cleanest burning, and cheapest to produce. So cheap they could sell it to east Asia and with a foot print 1/10th the size of putting windmills/solar panels over the entire landscape (just think of the hunting opportunities that would be affected by that). Not to mention the other recreation that would be affected with that kind of footprint and closing of access to protect vandalism to the windmills and solar panels.

So, Wyoming, with its massive amount of coal mining, is often at the top of peoples list of western states to hunt in, matter of fact Fin ranks it as his number 1 state for western hunting and living. Mentioned it on his podcast and on here. How could this be with the hundreds of millions of tons of coal they mine? They must be totally raping the land everywhere and have no conservation balance!!! How does Wyoming have the most sage grouse of any western state, most pronghorn, most mountain sheep tags, and is looking at a grizzly bear season? Definitely sounds like they are not doing things correct in your eyes given we like to mine our coal for sending to 30 US states for cheap reliable power.

So yes, let's shut down the Wyoming system where schools are well funded, public land hunting opportunity and quality are off the charts relative to other western states, and people just want to be left alone because they realize how good we have it here with high wages and a plethora of public lands nearby that has struck a fine balance. Anything that is against this system, is not balanced in my opinion. But hey, maybe California is on to something with their fine conservation balanced model...

 

[375H&H]

Yep, but higher log costs doesn't mean the finished product can be sold for more.

Of course, and that is my whole point. If log costs come down, e.g. more mills closer to harvest, then more wood is profitable for sale. Are we confusing one another?

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, but that is just market dynamics and any industry fluctuates up and down. That is much different than the hand of government controlling the industry or not approving timber sales/mining leases that can make money. Industry spends on positive speculation and if the government is not giving industry x a positive feeling, investment goes down. Big difference.

Where's the law, act, or regulation that says Industry is owed a living from public resources?

The bottom line is, one of the main reasons that private industry can make money logging is if they own a huge land base, and that's only realistic in areas that have rotation ages of 40-60 years. Plus, they aren't required to manage for ANYTHING else but timber, no other interests like those on public lands. Then of course, they also don't have the same regulations, rules, and laws that congress requires of Federal Lands. In much of the Interior West, where rotation ages are 80 years best case, and in some cases much longer, how does a company run a computerized mill that gobbles timber faster than it can be grown? You cant, what you do is what plum creek did in Western Montana, you liquidate your timber assets and then peddle your land holdings and move to a place that grows trees twice as fast.

What cant happen is for the FS to make up the demand for timber when private industry liquidates theirs at a pace that is unsustainable. That's forest economics 101...

Just so you know, my Dad was in the timber industry in Western Montana for over 40 years and I've been in the Forest Resource Management field for over 30 myself...with a degree in same.

You can bullchit the fans, but not the players.

 

[BuzzH]

Ask any remaining mill operator in the NW what keeps them up at night. # one concern is stable supply of logs.

Diesel at over $3 a gallon doesn't help either...logs need to be moved to the mill cheaply, and that isn't happening with long rotation ages at a sustainable level, ever.

 

[375H&H]

Where's the law, act, or regulation that says Industry is owed a living from public resources?

The bottom line is, one of the main reasons that private industry can make money logging is if they own a huge land base, and that's only realistic in areas that have rotation ages of 40-60 years. Plus, they aren't required to manage for ANYTHING else but timber, no other interests like those on public lands. Then of course, they also don't have the same regulations, rules, and laws that congress requires of Federal Lands. In much of the Interior West, where rotation ages are 80 years best case, and in some cases much longer, how does a company run a computerized mill that gobbles timber faster than it can be grown? You cant, what you do is what plum creek did in Western Montana, you liquidate your timber assets and then peddle your land holdings and move to a place that grows trees twice as fast.

What cant happen is for the FS to make up the demand for timber when private industry liquidates theirs at a pace that is unsustainable. That's forest economics 101...

Just so you know, my Dad was in the timber industry in Western Montana for over 40 years and I've been in the Forest Resource Management field for over 30 myself...with a degree in same.

Except Weyerhaeuser bought plum creek and moved from western Washington/Oregon which is logging central to western Montana. I doubt they did that thinking they would lose money but by your stated logic they would. I believe they are still the largest timber company in the world? I trust their millions of investment over your opinion on profitable timber.

 

[Nameless Range]

Except Weyerhaeuser bought plum creek and moved from western Washington/Oregon which is logging central to western Montana. I doubt they did that thinking they would lose money but by your stated logic they would. I believe they are still the largest timber company in the world? I trust their millions of investment over your opinion on profitable timber.

Have you ever been on what was formerly Plum Creek land in Western Montana?

Buzz knows what he's talking about.

 

[BuzzH]

Except Weyerhaeuser bought plum creek and moved from western Washington/Oregon which is logging central to western Montana. I doubt they did that thinking they would lose money but by your stated logic they would. I believe they are still the largest timber company in the world? I trust their millions of investment over your opinion on profitable timber.

They didn't buy all of it, remember the Legacy Act?

Plus, they have the luxury of being able to wait out markets and 80 year rotation ages because they have their Coastal timber lands...they'll swing through Montana every 80 years and liquidate their timber lands here, do it in about 20 years and then count beans again to decide what they want to do next. Just like ACM, Champion, and Plum Creek...and you'll still be whining that Federal Lands cant sustain the other 60 years.

Seen it...

 

[Gerald Martin]

Extensive logging to alleviate overall intensity and destructiveness of wildfires at the scope envisioned by "log it or watch it burn" proponents can not be accomplished without massive subsidies at current market conditions. Saying it will pay for itself is wishful thinking until market conditions change.

Factor in the costs of road building and maintenance and the added pressure to elk from easier access into the equation of what it takes to make more logging a reality.

I view myself as very pro-logging when it can be done responsibly (I think current logging practices are very environmentally sound for the most part) and when the revenue it generates and forest heath it promotes outweigh the negatives associated with more roads, more pressure on wildlife, etc... When it pays for itself and can be done responsibly, by all means utilize that renewable resource. When it can't pay for itself, let it burn. Fire has been a part of the landscape well before our industrialized society had the tools and population to cut down all the timber.

 

[BigHornRam]

Now you did it, you mentioned coal mining and that is something that I will never back down from because that pays my salary, feeds my family, and allows me to enjoy the public lands nearby for hunting and recreating (and it likely provides your state with cheap, reliable electricity which we in the 1st world take for granted).

Let's look at Wyoming, number 1 coal producer in the nation, and by your logic a horrible place for public lands because they like to mine so much coal. Do you know what a blue ribbon school is? I didn't until I moved to Wyoming. Wyoming has blue ribbon schools all over the place, matter of fact in the 2 towns I have lived in nearly every school is blue ribbon. And they are funded by the coal mining that is in the state, which is sustainable, and profitable, for over 1000 years in the powder river basin. Wyoming is the epitome of conservation, they mine and develop where they need to, but also set aside vast national parks, wilderness areas, BLM, and national forest that are not mined. Let's not forget that mining in Wyoming is one of the best places to mine coal in the world with easy reclamation (no trees, relatively flat ground, etc), vast amount, cleanest burning, and cheapest to produce. So cheap they could sell it to east Asia and with a foot print 1/10th the size of putting windmills/solar panels over the entire landscape (just think of the hunting opportunities that would be affected by that). Not to mention the other recreation that would be affected with that kind of footprint and closing of access to protect vandalism to the windmills and solar panels.

So, Wyoming, with its massive amount of coal mining, is often at the top of peoples list of western states to hunt in, matter of fact Fin ranks it as his number 1 state for western hunting and living. Mentioned it on his podcast and on here. How could this be with the hundreds of millions of tons of coal they mine? They must be totally raping the land everywhere and have no conservation balance!!! How does Wyoming have the most sage grouse of any western state, most pronghorn, most mountain sheep tags, and is looking at a grizzly bear season? Definitely sounds like they are not doing things correct in your eyes given we like to mine our coal for sending to 30 US states for cheap reliable power.

So yes, let's shut down the Wyoming system where schools are well funded, public land hunting opportunity and quality are off the charts relative to other western states, and people just want to be left alone because they realize how good we have it here with high wages and a plethora of public lands nearby that has struck a fine balance. Anything that is against this system, is not balanced in my opinion. But hey, maybe California is on to something with their fine conservation balanced model...

Someone touched a nerve, eh? Come on, California is all about balance! Electricity in California comes from the wall.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Since Weyerhaeuser came into the conversation while I was typing my first response, I'd like to weigh in on that since it's in my back yard. There are VERY few elk on all that land. Lot's of roads, lots of deer. All that private, heavily logged land burned just like the forest service land around it during the last fire.

 

[375H&H]

Someone touched a nerve, eh? Come on, California is all about balance! Electricity in California comes from the wall.

Just quietly, yes. And sorry to hijack your thread.

Next time say "375 knows what he is talking about" as that may give me some credibility. Until then I am hopeless.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Thankfully, Montana secured public access easements on the Plum Creek land before it was sold. Otherwise, we would be subject to the whims of the private owners like they are in Oregon where it is "pay to play" on timber company land.

If I had to choose between heavily roaded, heavily logged, private land in my backyard or lightly roaded, lightly logged Forest service land that burns occasionally, I'll take the latter every time.