Scope Recommendations (for new 1885)
- Thread starter VikingsGuy
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A fast stepping chambering on one a falling block action with a vintage scope would be a crazy fun 'sleeper' to have! Look like a buffler getter, but be slinging bullets at close to 4000fps! 
Always thought the Browning low walls with the 28" barrel chambered in 25-06 would be a hoot if rechambered to 257 Weatherby.
Always thought the Browning low walls with the 28" barrel chambered in 25-06 would be a hoot if rechambered to 257 Weatherby.
BrentD
Well-known member
1-pointer, that would be an odd duck for sure. Real low walls don't get chambered much beyond .25-20 for those that treasure a long life expectancy, a really "stepping out" cartridge is like a .38-72 (got one), and the buffalo were all dead before the 1885 ever if the fields.
Maybe it was a high wall. Either way, Browning made some Winchester falling block replicas in 25-06. One in 243 rechambered to 6-06 might be even more fun with all of the cool 6mm bullets now on the market, assuming that the twist rate would be appropriate for some of the long, VLD type bullets.
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BrentD
Well-known member
Yes, the replicas (those, not other replicas) are very different beasts. They only superficially resemble original 1885, and really can't be compared except by looks. True replicas include the MVA, but not the Browning or new Winchesters regardless of what they call them.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
If I wanted a circa 1885-1899 production model what cartridge options would I have?
BrentD
Well-known member
From John Campbell, the author of the definitive two volumes on the Winchester Singleshot:
These are too long to type out, so I left them as fairly high resolution for you to download and blow up on your own rather than stick them directly into this post, but safe to say, the .30-06 was pushing the limits, though a few were made.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Winchester 1885 chamberings 1.jpg
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Winchester 1885 chamberings 2.jpg
Not in the timeline described, but a 1885 in 348 Winchester would be the cat's pajama's. It could be interesting in 33 WCF as well, given the bullet choices you could employ in a single shot. 200 grain partition at 2500 FPS for example.
In the timeline you want - 38-55, 40-82 and the 45-90 would all be a blast, especially if you use black powder. 405 Winchester for smokeless would be a lot of fun as well.
In the timeline you want - 38-55, 40-82 and the 45-90 would all be a blast, especially if you use black powder. 405 Winchester for smokeless would be a lot of fun as well.
BrentD
Well-known member
Keep the 348 in a Brownchester version. The originals would not do well, I think.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Definitely sticking to smokeless powder and cartridges I can get dies, bullets, primers and cases for. Looks like I have some interesting homework to do.
Then I'd look at the 30-40 Krag as well as the 405 Winchester, 38-55, 45-70 or even a .303 British (which really screams for either a Ruger #1 or a Farquharson action, but it's still a cool cartridge).
Agree w/ Brent on original 1885 steel versus the new stuff. I'd get a newly minted action, and use one of the above cartridges.
BrentD
Well-known member
In no way do I want to discourage that, but I do encourage you to think about more traditional cartridges AND traditional loads. When you drop a nice buck antelope at 300 yds or your first bull elk with an bullet you cast yourself (maybe even designed yourself), loaded in a traditional manner, and so forth, well, it adds a little more to the experience. At least it does for me.
We are all wired a little differently. From first memory in my single digit years, I was interested in the traditions of hunting, not the technology of hunting (and marketing). I'd been hunting for a long time before I discovered BPCR rifles, but they were a game changer for me, making the game twice or three times more interesting. And it really spices up the off season in so many ways as well. It also means you have to completely revise everything you know and believe about shooting. But what's not to love about that?
If I was going to go traditional but smokeless, hmmm, I'd probably opt for .30-40 Krag.
If you love the old Winchester 85s like I do, then you might want to consider shopping around for a used copy of Volume 1 of John Campbell's book, the Singleshot Rifle. They are available used now, and often are commanding $200/copy prices, but sometimes I see them on the cheap. It is a wonderful book to read with great drawings, data on rifles and production, and stories of how the 85 came to be (you know it started out as Jon Browning's rifle invention in Utah, which was very similar, but different).
If you are interested in the newer "Brownchesters" there is a great book on them too, though I don't know the details of it, since that is not how I roll. But I can find the info for anyone that is interested. It is a new book and quite reasonably priced as I recall.
If you are interested in "varmitized" 1885s (rifles that can "step out" but do so safely), they are becoming a collector's cult in and of themselves. I know of a nice one for sale right now, but I view them as "murdered" originals. Sorry, just can't help it. The 50s was an ugly time in gun building if you ask me.
This is an original 85, born in the late 1880 and sold at a hardware store in Wisconsin. A single-family rifle when I acquired it, it's .38-55 barrel was totally rotted out. It is now a .38-72. The Helm lever is not original, although they were made and sold with that lever (usually wide double set trigger versions), and the trigger has been upgraded from a plain trigger to a single set. I'm contemplating putting the Winchester B5 Scope on it and using it for mulies this fall in Wyoming. Even with a scope, it carries very easily. And it is VERY fast and flat shooting (in my world).
BrentD
Well-known member
I have never seen a highwall in .303. Note the asterisc behind many of the .30 cal chamberings and some others as well. They are very rare (and maybe a bit dicey. As I recall from reading Campbell years ago, the few .30-06s were made for Wimbledon shooting by the Brits and the one or two that Campbell had inspected personally seemed to be a bit loose as if they were stretching a bit. Even .30 krags are not a dime a dozen. But .38-55s and .45-70s are commmon. You can't beat either of them for good cartridges. I resisted the .45-70 for years and now own 4 or 5 of them.
The 45-70 is about as cool a cartridge as you can get and has adapted to the modern era well. I'd still put 70 or grains of fffg into the case and punch out a 400 grain bullet over the modern bone-crusher loadings though.
For the original steel, I would imagine it all comes down to pressure and what the steel can realistically stand. A 30-40 craig or even a 8mm Patrone would be low pressure rounds that the action could handle, but if you really wanted to get the most out of the rifle, I'd use an action produced after 1910 or so.
The modern ones are strong enough for the standard cartridges and even belted magnums. I tend to prefer the classic European lines of the Ruger #1 over the Browning for those zippy cartridges though, and would stick to the classics in the Hi-Wall (especially if it were a 40-82).
BrentD
Well-known member
The modern ones, which I call Brownchesters (made in the last 20 yrs by Browning and then Winchester) are different in every way except superficial appearances (and even that is debatable). So, yes, they can shoot stuff like 7mm mags etc. But nonmagnums with rims are the stuff of real 1885s. Be sure you don't confuse the two.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
By "last 20 yrs" do you mean the replicas made since 2005, or do you mean in the last twenty years of original production (circa post-1910)?
Thanks to both Brent and Ben for all this info - I guess I really hadn't thought that much about it other than a distant fascination -- I have some reading and learning to do. At this point my initial thought is that if I am going vintage original I would like to have as few parts updated as realistically possible. I also would like to stay smokeless. Beyond that I am open and am going to do some thinking.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
We haven't even got to loading smokeless for black loads.
I can hear my wife groaning as we speak. I need another geeky/niche/pricey hobby like I need another hole in my head she would kindly point out. But me on the other hand, the wheels are turning.
BrentD
Well-known member
I was referring to the rifles made in the last 2-3 decades. I don't really remember when they started coming out. BTW, if you are interested in one of those, there is a really good expert on them who goes by the handle TexasMac on the Shiloh website - he wrote the book and can tell all about what they can do, can't do and where to find one, and how much to pay. But for the old, original versions, the Campbell book is hard to beat and then you have the internet "experts" (like me) and you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Vikingsguy (by the way, I'm a life-long follower of the purple, this is Oour year, I hope), tell your wife, these old guns, even if you have to restore, rebuild, or whatever, tend to hold their values fairly well. These are not like golf clubs where they lose 99% of their value when you walk out of the shop, never to recover. In fact, when you buy an "Old One", you are really just putting down a deposit that you will get back, nearly in full, sometimes with great profit, when you (or she) sell on the other end. Sure you spend a couple grand, but you get it back down the road when you are old and feeble and so forth.
And you know what Randy says about waiting to hunt later - well it applies to fine rifles too.
Were I you, and I like as much original as possible, I would also consider rifles and calibers that are compatible with relining because rifles with rotted bores are common. I like my wood to be tight and complete - but cracks don't scare me, necessarily. I have a Greener shotgun on my shop bench being cured of multiple cracks and breaks right now - part of the job. But I want the wood solid with no missing, oil rotted stuff, or holes etc, or else, I'm just shopping for an action. Here, let me show you a few examples for sale right now - none are mine.
This is a "stepping out" varminter - to me only interesting as a possible donor action to be converted back to something more original. It's over priced for that purpose however. But as a varminter goes, it's pretty nice and worth close to that money in my opinion (varminters are increasing in collector interest slowly).
https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1529960211
This is an original that has been rebored to a larger caliber, probably do to pitting. The caliber is a good one (.40-65). Kills elk, moose and all the smaller stuff. But this action is pretty rough. It's not really a candidate for restoration.
https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1528481114
Both of these have been for sale for a while and neither have sold. That also suggests that the asking prices are still too high. How far down should they be? Hard to say, esp. on the Varminter. The second, just so rough on the exterior, hard to love. Maybe $700 for me. But that's just me. And I am not really interested and in the game for another hunting rifle.
Ben, so far as white for black loads, those are well known for most chamberings as many people do that. I do it sometimes but not often and never in singleshots. But pretty straight forward. As a rule, the really cavernous cases like .45-90s and above, are where it gets the most tricky.
VG, I'll try to talk you into trying smoking powder, lead bullets, and, glory be! paper patches one day. Don't fight it; let it come to you; it's not hard; or scary; just different. And it might totally change your life. For the better. Really.
Ben, so far as white for black loads, those are well known for most chamberings as many people do that. I do it sometimes but not often and never in singleshots. But pretty straight forward. As a rule, the really cavernous cases like .45-90s and above, are where it gets the most tricky.
VG, I'll try to talk you into trying smoking powder, lead bullets, and, glory be! paper patches one day. Don't fight it; let it come to you; it's not hard; or scary; just different. And it might totally change your life. For the better. Really.
40-90 is nothing. Try the really big stuff like 577 & 500's. 150-160 grains of Black is a heck of a lot by volume. Makes that 90 grains look puny.
The smokeless for Black can be tricky, but not if you pay attention to detail, and don't mind spending a lot more time weighing dacron filler. I've done some of this for the Shiloh Sharps I have, and had tremendous accuracy results to around .5 MOA with the 386 bullets.
VIkingsguy - Loading with Blackpowder is very straight forward. The only real specialized pieces of gear I've needed for that are a dedicated black powder powder thrower, a drop tube and a specific funnel for black powder. It's a great time, throwing smoke at the range while all the AR fan-boys are plinking with their poodle-shooters. Stops action on the line all the time.
