shoots-straight
Well-known member
The tag give aways are not only NR tags. They are a variety of different groups receiving freebees.
Youth,
seniors,
handicapped,
military,
Youth,
seniors,
handicapped,
military,
SB 380 Reconsideration of Bill!
- Thread starter shoots-straight
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theat
Well-known member
I have friends that are outfitters. I have worked as a guide. I HAD sympathy and support for the profession in the past...that is gone now. The actions of their leadership during the past two legislative sessions, the attempt by outfitters to stop Randy's appointment to the RMEF Board including at least one on this board, as well as the BS and extreme exaggerations that some outfitters spew on this site has turned me against them. Due to their actions and words, I and (I believe) the majority of resident hunters are ready to support some major restrictions on the industry. If it takes the initiative process for this to happen...so be it. You can't expect us to continuously be attacked and stomped on without fighting back can you?
Eric, Repeat
Look to your organization and what you might do to strap a set of balls on them. Give you a clue.....who decided it was not in MOGA's best interest to oppose the sheep bill??? or the Transplant bill, or many others??? Taking direction from SFW on predators is real smart too. Perhaps Mac has a direct line to Toby Bridges?
What you consider most important is not the rule for everyone, and in fact it is only your opinion. Some folks (yes even sportsmen) are predator friendly. Fact: FWP is charged with managing all Fish and Wildlife for the people. It doesn't say we only manage for ungulates. Managing all the critters in a system is the goal, not just managing for your favorites...remember "all the people".
Rather voters are uninformed as you believe, or largely more informed as I think, the over riding fact of the matter is: DO YOU HEAR ANYONE BUT OUTFITTERS WHINING ABOUT I-161, albeit out of one side of their mouths and saying it is the greatest thing since rice checks out of the other.
I am real transparent. I resent outfitters driving a wedge between sportsmen and landowners with leasing...no doubt about it. Badmouthing sportsmen and bragging about their skills and money. And after seeing the antics and lack of character of MOGA, I don't have a fuzzy feeling about them at all.. Moga is the most self serving outfit I have ever seen. But, I have a soft spot for Outfitters who operate ethically and aren't out to screw resident hunters out of anything. Thank God many good outfitters see through MOGA and are not impressed.
In fact, just came off of an outfitted trip!
Look to your organization and what you might do to strap a set of balls on them. Give you a clue.....who decided it was not in MOGA's best interest to oppose the sheep bill??? or the Transplant bill, or many others??? Taking direction from SFW on predators is real smart too. Perhaps Mac has a direct line to Toby Bridges?
What you consider most important is not the rule for everyone, and in fact it is only your opinion. Some folks (yes even sportsmen) are predator friendly. Fact: FWP is charged with managing all Fish and Wildlife for the people. It doesn't say we only manage for ungulates. Managing all the critters in a system is the goal, not just managing for your favorites...remember "all the people".
Rather voters are uninformed as you believe, or largely more informed as I think, the over riding fact of the matter is: DO YOU HEAR ANYONE BUT OUTFITTERS WHINING ABOUT I-161, albeit out of one side of their mouths and saying it is the greatest thing since rice checks out of the other.
I am real transparent. I resent outfitters driving a wedge between sportsmen and landowners with leasing...no doubt about it. Badmouthing sportsmen and bragging about their skills and money. And after seeing the antics and lack of character of MOGA, I don't have a fuzzy feeling about them at all.. Moga is the most self serving outfit I have ever seen. But, I have a soft spot for Outfitters who operate ethically and aren't out to screw resident hunters out of anything. Thank God many good outfitters see through MOGA and are not impressed.
In fact, just came off of an outfitted trip!
Eric Albus
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Joe, I will speak for myself on this with the leasing....the landowners all came to me, with the exception of one, who came to me on account of an ad I ran on Craig's list....and that landowner answered the ad because they were upset w/ FWP(very rightfully so), 3-4 other landowners were just plain mad and fed up w/ FWP....the rest came to me because they were tired of dealing w/ the attitude of the public. I did not knock on doors and seek to drive a wedge.
Manage for "all the animals".... let's just see how well the predators pay FWP's bills. When we are in Utopia and the predators are managing the wildlife we will no longer need to sport hunt.
You have never heard me "whine about 161"...all I ever said is that it's a bad thing when the outcome has been good for outfitters, the "haters" will think up something more drastic next time around.
greenhorn...I wish I had pivots...I have to irrigate w/ a pump that is backed into the river and work like a dog to get my crops wet...which they need as soon as I get pump fixed....and "Uncle Bill" appreciates all I do for the wildlife on our ranch...the deer seem to appreciate it also...I just hope the 160+ bucks we saw last fall grow up....and that we don't get EHD'd off the planet again....tell you what, come up here and irrigate one week for me in July, deal w/ the mosquitoes, chop the ditches pitch them out, swat mosquitoes, up all night changing water, swat more mosquitoes, and I will give you a week bow hunting...you don't have to bale or haul bales off, just run water for a 7 days...how's that sound? I offer this for 2 reasons, 1 bigshooter says you are alright, 2. I don't think you'll take me up on it...if you do, maybe Randy would film you swattin' skeeters/irrigating and then come back and film you shooting a big Milk River whitetail (unless you do a poor job irrigating, then we put you on a 110" buck).... It could be kind of a 2 part story, maybe we could develop a plot, you could scout whilst swattin skeeters
Manage for "all the animals".... let's just see how well the predators pay FWP's bills. When we are in Utopia and the predators are managing the wildlife we will no longer need to sport hunt.
You have never heard me "whine about 161"...all I ever said is that it's a bad thing when the outcome has been good for outfitters, the "haters" will think up something more drastic next time around.
greenhorn...I wish I had pivots...I have to irrigate w/ a pump that is backed into the river and work like a dog to get my crops wet...which they need as soon as I get pump fixed....and "Uncle Bill" appreciates all I do for the wildlife on our ranch...the deer seem to appreciate it also...I just hope the 160+ bucks we saw last fall grow up....and that we don't get EHD'd off the planet again....tell you what, come up here and irrigate one week for me in July, deal w/ the mosquitoes, chop the ditches pitch them out, swat mosquitoes, up all night changing water, swat more mosquitoes, and I will give you a week bow hunting...you don't have to bale or haul bales off, just run water for a 7 days...how's that sound? I offer this for 2 reasons, 1 bigshooter says you are alright, 2. I don't think you'll take me up on it...if you do, maybe Randy would film you swattin' skeeters/irrigating and then come back and film you shooting a big Milk River whitetail (unless you do a poor job irrigating, then we put you on a 110" buck).... It could be kind of a 2 part story, maybe we could develop a plot, you could scout whilst swattin skeeters
The Hedgehog
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Eric, Thanks -but even if you subtracted the labor, I'd still pass. Could I share a bunk with Bill Jerdan and the Bone Collector? A signed hat or window sticker would make it tempting.
I cherish every day outside I can spend. There's amazing big game hunting on the public areas of MT, which is where I'll be with my boy this fall every chance I get.
I know you're a great guy and all, but based on what I've read here - we've got big differences of opinions. I've watched the Vandalia bucks come out to feed at dusk. I also remember the look old Tiny Cornwell gave me in July when I left his place to scout the river one day in July. The mosquitos are more impressive than the bucks.
I'm not anti-outfitter, unless they team up and try to turn Montana into Texas. I've a few great friends who are outfitters, but most have put the love for hunting before the business plan.
I cherish every day outside I can spend. There's amazing big game hunting on the public areas of MT, which is where I'll be with my boy this fall every chance I get.
I know you're a great guy and all, but based on what I've read here - we've got big differences of opinions. I've watched the Vandalia bucks come out to feed at dusk. I also remember the look old Tiny Cornwell gave me in July when I left his place to scout the river one day in July. The mosquitos are more impressive than the bucks.
I'm not anti-outfitter, unless they team up and try to turn Montana into Texas. I've a few great friends who are outfitters, but most have put the love for hunting before the business plan.
...and blame it on another group.
Eric Albus
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With 30+million acres of public lands w/ adequate access, there is no worry about Montana turning into Texas. With 8-9 million acres of Block Management, no worries.
With outfitters leasing 6.5 million acres, why is anyone worried about us? The state has 94 million acres in it, we are leasing .72% of the state, not even a full 1%...and we are the target of everyones angst?
With outfitters leasing 6.5 million acres, why is anyone worried about us? The state has 94 million acres in it, we are leasing .72% of the state, not even a full 1%...and we are the target of everyones angst?
The Hedgehog
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Seriously? You feel like a target because all these retarded MOGA supported bills got nuked?
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Eric, it is not really the leasing that is the primary cause of MOGA being the "target of everyones angst". MOGA's general attitude of disdain for Montana hunters and the following list of apparent reasons more accurately describes the cause of angst against MOGA.
MOGA's obsession concerning unlimited antelope and elk archery tags in some districts resulting in documented cases of overcrowding hunting conflicts and excessive disproportionate numbers of NRs exceeding the legislated cap for NR permits. MOGA openly expressing opposition to public access to public lands.
MOGA's initiation and/or support of many bills clearly adverse to the best interests of Montana wildlife, sportsmen, and FWP. An individual industry with a special license deal relationship with a state agency resulting in a ballot initiative to remove that widely criticized special interest relationship.
Expressed interests toward increased commercialization of wildlife. Those are some of the more prominent concerns about MOGA and the seemingly radical perspective of its leadership.
MOGA's obsession concerning unlimited antelope and elk archery tags in some districts resulting in documented cases of overcrowding hunting conflicts and excessive disproportionate numbers of NRs exceeding the legislated cap for NR permits. MOGA openly expressing opposition to public access to public lands.
MOGA's initiation and/or support of many bills clearly adverse to the best interests of Montana wildlife, sportsmen, and FWP. An individual industry with a special license deal relationship with a state agency resulting in a ballot initiative to remove that widely criticized special interest relationship.
Expressed interests toward increased commercialization of wildlife. Those are some of the more prominent concerns about MOGA and the seemingly radical perspective of its leadership.
Eric, read Straight Arrow above slowly and absorb.
It is not outfitters but MOGA who has defined your industry to us with their actions and the methodology. Any business with MOGA's image and reputation would be and should be subject to distrust, disdain, etc. There is most certainly a huge difference in Outfitters as a category and MOGA, but if MOGA is the one out front, you will continue to color the industry with the same broad brush. Who is it spending big bucks on lobbying yet has no money or time for common resource problems. Yet, you folks don't even seem to recognize you have an image problem. That failing is the problem. MOGA's efforts to work with sportsmen are nonexistent. Look toward your ED and board and ask if this is the direction you want to go.
You can rant and rave all you want about predators. Predators are but one part of a system and are to be managed as such. Predator haters do not have a leg up "just because". I might suggest to you that every component of wild systems have folks who love that particular part. Doesn't make you any more important than anyone else. Read...educate yourself in the science. FWP is the trustee of all wild things for the people. Not just your favorites or mine. Democracy is really a wonderful thing.
If you folks can lease up millions of acres, this business must be REALLY lucrative and additional licenses are a self serving joke.
It is not outfitters but MOGA who has defined your industry to us with their actions and the methodology. Any business with MOGA's image and reputation would be and should be subject to distrust, disdain, etc. There is most certainly a huge difference in Outfitters as a category and MOGA, but if MOGA is the one out front, you will continue to color the industry with the same broad brush. Who is it spending big bucks on lobbying yet has no money or time for common resource problems. Yet, you folks don't even seem to recognize you have an image problem. That failing is the problem. MOGA's efforts to work with sportsmen are nonexistent. Look toward your ED and board and ask if this is the direction you want to go.
You can rant and rave all you want about predators. Predators are but one part of a system and are to be managed as such. Predator haters do not have a leg up "just because". I might suggest to you that every component of wild systems have folks who love that particular part. Doesn't make you any more important than anyone else. Read...educate yourself in the science. FWP is the trustee of all wild things for the people. Not just your favorites or mine. Democracy is really a wonderful thing.
If you folks can lease up millions of acres, this business must be REALLY lucrative and additional licenses are a self serving joke.
Eric Albus
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straight...let's be honest..leasing is where the angst begins.... as to the elk permits, if they want to limit them, then let's limit them to where when you draw you have a permit worth drawing...there are still to many people bow hunting the breaks...and I have gone the rounds w/ those who think otherwise. I grew up hunting the breaks....and to many people is why I stopped(although there are other options than permits that are less punative that SHOULD have been tried first).....antelope archery permits??? Give me a break...unlimited speed goat tags never hurt anyone...not even an arguement.
Joe, predators? do you really think that FWP can sell enough predator license to pay the bills? don't get me wrong, I do not want to see even the last coyote killed...and would do everything I could to see it not happen....but I do not want to see more predators in a day than I do ungulates....been there done that...6-8 mule deer per day, 18-23 coyotes per day, on average late 90's Reg. 6...today 1-2 coyotes per day, 15-25 mule deer...thanks to the Gov't and their coyote killing machine here in Reg.6...
I do not want to see the last mountain lion or bear killed either...just keep their numbers low, so we can keep deer/elk numbers high...or are you wanting to see Utopia? Where predators are keeping ungulates in check, and we no longer need to sport hunt.....that is the goal w/ some groups.
Joe, predators? do you really think that FWP can sell enough predator license to pay the bills? don't get me wrong, I do not want to see even the last coyote killed...and would do everything I could to see it not happen....but I do not want to see more predators in a day than I do ungulates....been there done that...6-8 mule deer per day, 18-23 coyotes per day, on average late 90's Reg. 6...today 1-2 coyotes per day, 15-25 mule deer...thanks to the Gov't and their coyote killing machine here in Reg.6...
I do not want to see the last mountain lion or bear killed either...just keep their numbers low, so we can keep deer/elk numbers high...or are you wanting to see Utopia? Where predators are keeping ungulates in check, and we no longer need to sport hunt.....that is the goal w/ some groups.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Not true; not honest. That is your opinion (skewed by affiliation with MOGA) but it ignores the rest of Montana. Your paragraph speaks to your personal opinion, but reflects your ineffectiveness as a MOGA Board member as it contradicts what MOGA has been advocating. (Incidentally, I fully agree with your opinion about further limiting the archery elk permits in the Breaks and in a few other areas, but that is not the position of your MOGA)
Perhaps not, but it is in conflict with the NR 10% cap restriction. There may be other ways to enforce that cap, but unlimited permits does not allow enforcement. So you are correct: it is not even an arguement. FWP is legislatively mandated to do it.
Big Shooter
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Could...or should I say "would", somebody explain to us as to why the resident sportsman are so against the leasing of private ground? I am honestly not trying to be a jackass here, but I have read the statement many times that "I would support the public land outfitter until the end" or "public land outfitters are fine, but the private land outfitters need to be stopped". It confuses me for the fact that when DIY guys are out hunting public ground, they are in direct competition with the public land outfitter, but the private land outfitter is predominately hunting on ground that is closed to public hunting, always has been, and always will be.
Again, I am not trying to be rude, but it seems to me that it would be the other way around.
Again, I am not trying to be rude, but it seems to me that it would be the other way around.
This is not the first time you've posted something of this nature. You've also posted many times that you'd like to see game managed "biologically". Question, is this you're interpretation of doing game management "biologically"?
The Hedgehog
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Eric, you've had too many cups of coffee with Hoppe and Fanning.
You complain that the FWP cannot "manage" biologically, yet think unlimited goat permits don't hurt anything? What other state does that? How are the goats doing up there now guys? Who are you to say how the bears and other predators should be hunted/managed?
Lease up everything you want, but screw off on the stacks of special licenses, changes to hunting methods and seasons, and putting handcuffs on the FWP.
You complain that the FWP cannot "manage" biologically, yet think unlimited goat permits don't hurt anything? What other state does that? How are the goats doing up there now guys? Who are you to say how the bears and other predators should be hunted/managed?
Lease up everything you want, but screw off on the stacks of special licenses, changes to hunting methods and seasons, and putting handcuffs on the FWP.
Eric Albus
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straight...we can agree on something...the antelope unlimited archery permits never did hurt anything...but when you pulled the legislative mandate out...I can't argue that..
greenhorn...archery hunting speed goats never hurt anything, bow hunting as a rule does not affect populations or degrade quality....I realize that is changing as technology is better, faster, and one day bow hunting may have an effect.
The antelope are coming back, slow but sure... I do not have any say on bears and other predators..I am just saying that the Dept. is going to get really broke if they have to count on sale of non-resident bear/mtn. lion/wolf tags to fund their operation...if you want your area managed for max. predators great... I want minimum predator numbers here in Regs. 6-7, that way everyone from western side of the state can come over and shoot a buck, oh wait, seems to us that live here that they already are.
who are "hoppe and fanning"? remember I am isolated up here, and do not get out much.
greenhorn...archery hunting speed goats never hurt anything, bow hunting as a rule does not affect populations or degrade quality....I realize that is changing as technology is better, faster, and one day bow hunting may have an effect.
The antelope are coming back, slow but sure... I do not have any say on bears and other predators..I am just saying that the Dept. is going to get really broke if they have to count on sale of non-resident bear/mtn. lion/wolf tags to fund their operation...if you want your area managed for max. predators great... I want minimum predator numbers here in Regs. 6-7, that way everyone from western side of the state can come over and shoot a buck, oh wait, seems to us that live here that they already are.
who are "hoppe and fanning"? remember I am isolated up here, and do not get out much.
howler
Active member
It is my understanding that the unlimited archery antelope tag did cause some big problems, there were some pretty extensive land leasing going on specifically for antelope and the unlimited number of non resident antelope tags available to outfitters,
several participants in the block management program were leased out to outfitters particularly in SE Mt. This was the first time I had heard the phrase "unintended consequences" I do not have any practical experience with this problem but Alan Charles the head of the Block Management program for FWP thinks it was a problem and advocated getting rid of the "unlimited part of the antelope 900 archery permit. He had a lot of support from all across the state.
several participants in the block management program were leased out to outfitters particularly in SE Mt. This was the first time I had heard the phrase "unintended consequences" I do not have any practical experience with this problem but Alan Charles the head of the Block Management program for FWP thinks it was a problem and advocated getting rid of the "unlimited part of the antelope 900 archery permit. He had a lot of support from all across the state.
Rat Fink
Member
That's a pile of crap. The number one reason for the decline in quantity and quality of mature bull elk in the breaks over the last 20 years was huge numbers of archery hunters.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Eric,
A few comments for you, based on your responses.
I suggest you go ahead and drop the MOGA membership and join MTSFW. You're largely there anyway and you could take over for Toby Bridges as the MT anti-predator, kill every predator in sight, blame everything on predators guru.
Good luck with that.
Secondly, you're WRONG about archery pronghorn hunters having any impact. If they kill ONE pronghorn, they're having an impact.
Its quite humorous for you to make the claim that archery hunters "have no impact". When I started bowhunting elk, over 25 years ago, success rates and the number of elk killed was very low. The number of archery hunters was also really low. Now, success rates have increased significantly, the number of archery hunters has sky-rocketed...and yet you're still using 1980 data to claim that archery hunters have "no impact". Archery hunters began impacted the resource once the first arrow was released from a bow...and its been nothing but bigger impacts since.
You're right about one thing...you're definitely isolated...from something called reality and 2013.
Its also quite humorous for you to claim that a thousand wolves are having a huge impact on game...but then you make the claim that several thousand archery hunters dont?
Unbelievable.
A few comments for you, based on your responses.
I suggest you go ahead and drop the MOGA membership and join MTSFW. You're largely there anyway and you could take over for Toby Bridges as the MT anti-predator, kill every predator in sight, blame everything on predators guru.
Good luck with that.
Secondly, you're WRONG about archery pronghorn hunters having any impact. If they kill ONE pronghorn, they're having an impact.
Its quite humorous for you to make the claim that archery hunters "have no impact". When I started bowhunting elk, over 25 years ago, success rates and the number of elk killed was very low. The number of archery hunters was also really low. Now, success rates have increased significantly, the number of archery hunters has sky-rocketed...and yet you're still using 1980 data to claim that archery hunters have "no impact". Archery hunters began impacted the resource once the first arrow was released from a bow...and its been nothing but bigger impacts since.
You're right about one thing...you're definitely isolated...from something called reality and 2013.
Its also quite humorous for you to claim that a thousand wolves are having a huge impact on game...but then you make the claim that several thousand archery hunters dont?
Unbelievable.
