Topgun 30-06
Active member
If you've read it and have decent reading comprehension, then why are you making so many incorrect comments regarding it?!
Quiet Waters Act Proposed by The Back country Hunters and Anglers
- Thread starter fowl_minded
- Start date
If you've read it and have decent reading comprehension, then why are you making so many incorrect comments regarding it?!
RobG
Well-known member
What is so bothersome about this whole thing is the misinformation out there, which is not to imply I agree with all of the plan.
So on that note, let's not spread more misinformation - he never claimed to have decent reading comprehension
fowl_minded
New member
I said punctual person
You guys want to talk about misinformation why don't you guys re-read the petition
Paragraphs like this one that are right out of the petition:
10. With regard to the requirements of 2-4-111, MCA, the department has
determined that the amendment and adoption of the above-referenced rules will not
significantly and directly impact small businesses.
I would love to actually see the list of so called small businesses they contacted to figure this one out. it was funny when this was brought up at the Billings meeting the response from the people representing BHA was and I quote "we didn't have to ask anyone we just know and that's the way it is."
Or this
Perhaps the most visible disturbance is to nesting or resting eagles, herons and osprey. While
humans can often pass underneath quietly in a non-motorized vessel, the often loud, fast
moving craft often displace such birds. A large wake from a noisy craft can also displace
waterfowl, and can scatter broods of young waterfowl. The adverse effects are, of course,
magnified with increasing frequent use levels.
How can they make this assumption, DU states that waterfowl and nesting pairs are through the roof and have been on a huge incline for the past few years. I hunt birds all the time and weather I go up or down the birds jump and they sit right back down weather a floater comes through or a jet they jump. Every time I go to the river there are eagles, hawks, osprey, Blue heron all over the place. They don't even blink when I drive by. There is more freakin nests in the trees then you could shake a stick at. But motorized boats are disturbing the habitat? Total BS
And this
The power and speed restrictions recommended in this document largely address this hazard.
Given the limited mobility of non-motorized users and the limited maneuverability of watercraft
travelling at higher speeds the implicit dangers high-performance watercraft pose to other users
on many of Montana’s streams and rivers are both immediate and apparent. Similarly, the very
same characteristics that have historically limited this irresponsible behavior present a
corresponding hazard to watercraft and users who may collide with debris, submerged boulders,
or other parts of the stream.
I can run my setup just fine. I can stop it, turn on a dime, run skinny water all just fine. There is nothing dangerous about it, as long as the operator is confident and responsible and watches out for him or herself as well as others. There shouldn't ever be any "dangerous situations"
The comments made that operating jets on rolling rivers like the Snake vs. flatter rivers like the Missouri it disrupts the fish more GMAFB, if I disrupt the fish so much how come I can catch them right after I pull up into a fishing hole or how come I catch then when I troll the rivers? Hell I just went over them with my motor engaged and my crankbait isn't even 50 yards out behind me. But, I'm disrupting them? Or maybe I can just catch fish, who knows?
The comments of jet boats being a major cause in bank erosion and making waves harder to navigate. Come on
There's talk by you guys of these Power Surf Boards and newer motorized technology being a concern well guess what some of them fall into the 10hp or less category so how is that gonna fix anything?
This is a division of sportsman whether you seem to see it or not, its one special interest group of sportsman proposing something to take away some form of recreation away from a different group of sportsman, which causes conflict.
Maybe the BHA should also consider this since they want to limit the amounts of pressure and conflict in certain areas caused by motorized boat users. They should consider limiting the amounts of Guides and Outfitters on these "majestic" trout fisheries. I'm sure this would go over really well. Seriously though you wanna talk about getting piss pounded and an overcrowding problem. Google imagine the Upper Missouri or the Upper Stone or The Upper 3 on the Big Horn and tell me that that isn't over pressured and disruptive, count all the boats its unreal. But, we all know that something like this never going to happen. Because the same guy thats name is all over this petition Mr. Dan Vermillion just happens to also be part of the bullshit commission appointed by none other then Mr. Steve Bullock. And we wouldn't want to effect his small business now would we. The same small business that includes a guide school program that get this......TEACHES THEIR STUDENTS HOW TO RUN JET BOATS. Now i may not be a smart man but I do know what a hypocrite is and its stamped right on his forehead! Thats the fearless leader of the deal, double dipping so he can squeak a little more cash into his back pocket!
How ya like them apples?
Am i lining my facts out for you guys good enough now?
I even learned how to use paragraphs through all of this.
I don't have any real compromises for this besides throw it out.
You guys want to talk about misinformation why don't you guys re-read the petition
Paragraphs like this one that are right out of the petition:
10. With regard to the requirements of 2-4-111, MCA, the department has
determined that the amendment and adoption of the above-referenced rules will not
significantly and directly impact small businesses.
I would love to actually see the list of so called small businesses they contacted to figure this one out. it was funny when this was brought up at the Billings meeting the response from the people representing BHA was and I quote "we didn't have to ask anyone we just know and that's the way it is."
Or this
Perhaps the most visible disturbance is to nesting or resting eagles, herons and osprey. While
humans can often pass underneath quietly in a non-motorized vessel, the often loud, fast
moving craft often displace such birds. A large wake from a noisy craft can also displace
waterfowl, and can scatter broods of young waterfowl. The adverse effects are, of course,
magnified with increasing frequent use levels.
How can they make this assumption, DU states that waterfowl and nesting pairs are through the roof and have been on a huge incline for the past few years. I hunt birds all the time and weather I go up or down the birds jump and they sit right back down weather a floater comes through or a jet they jump. Every time I go to the river there are eagles, hawks, osprey, Blue heron all over the place. They don't even blink when I drive by. There is more freakin nests in the trees then you could shake a stick at. But motorized boats are disturbing the habitat? Total BS
And this
The power and speed restrictions recommended in this document largely address this hazard.
Given the limited mobility of non-motorized users and the limited maneuverability of watercraft
travelling at higher speeds the implicit dangers high-performance watercraft pose to other users
on many of Montana’s streams and rivers are both immediate and apparent. Similarly, the very
same characteristics that have historically limited this irresponsible behavior present a
corresponding hazard to watercraft and users who may collide with debris, submerged boulders,
or other parts of the stream.
I can run my setup just fine. I can stop it, turn on a dime, run skinny water all just fine. There is nothing dangerous about it, as long as the operator is confident and responsible and watches out for him or herself as well as others. There shouldn't ever be any "dangerous situations"
The comments made that operating jets on rolling rivers like the Snake vs. flatter rivers like the Missouri it disrupts the fish more GMAFB, if I disrupt the fish so much how come I can catch them right after I pull up into a fishing hole or how come I catch then when I troll the rivers? Hell I just went over them with my motor engaged and my crankbait isn't even 50 yards out behind me. But, I'm disrupting them? Or maybe I can just catch fish, who knows?
The comments of jet boats being a major cause in bank erosion and making waves harder to navigate. Come on
There's talk by you guys of these Power Surf Boards and newer motorized technology being a concern well guess what some of them fall into the 10hp or less category so how is that gonna fix anything?
This is a division of sportsman whether you seem to see it or not, its one special interest group of sportsman proposing something to take away some form of recreation away from a different group of sportsman, which causes conflict.
Maybe the BHA should also consider this since they want to limit the amounts of pressure and conflict in certain areas caused by motorized boat users. They should consider limiting the amounts of Guides and Outfitters on these "majestic" trout fisheries. I'm sure this would go over really well. Seriously though you wanna talk about getting piss pounded and an overcrowding problem. Google imagine the Upper Missouri or the Upper Stone or The Upper 3 on the Big Horn and tell me that that isn't over pressured and disruptive, count all the boats its unreal. But, we all know that something like this never going to happen. Because the same guy thats name is all over this petition Mr. Dan Vermillion just happens to also be part of the bullshit commission appointed by none other then Mr. Steve Bullock. And we wouldn't want to effect his small business now would we. The same small business that includes a guide school program that get this......TEACHES THEIR STUDENTS HOW TO RUN JET BOATS. Now i may not be a smart man but I do know what a hypocrite is and its stamped right on his forehead! Thats the fearless leader of the deal, double dipping so he can squeak a little more cash into his back pocket!
How ya like them apples?
Am i lining my facts out for you guys good enough now?
I even learned how to use paragraphs through all of this.
I don't have any real compromises for this besides throw it out.
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Frenchy
Well-known member
From one of the many articles hitting the pappers.....
"At the May meeting at which the commission voted on the Quiet Waters proposal, FWP enforcement staff recommended that the petition be denied because the recommendations would “drastically restrict waterways without demonstrating any necessity to protect public health, public safety, public welfare or to protect property and public resources.”
Its pretty telling when the enforcement agency itself isn't for these restrictions. I haven't heard a single argument that persuades me that this is little more than "I don't like jets/motors so lets make them illegal." Its a my way of using the resource is better than your's mentality, and it is exactly pitting sportsmen against sportsmen.
"At the May meeting at which the commission voted on the Quiet Waters proposal, FWP enforcement staff recommended that the petition be denied because the recommendations would “drastically restrict waterways without demonstrating any necessity to protect public health, public safety, public welfare or to protect property and public resources.”
Its pretty telling when the enforcement agency itself isn't for these restrictions. I haven't heard a single argument that persuades me that this is little more than "I don't like jets/motors so lets make them illegal." Its a my way of using the resource is better than your's mentality, and it is exactly pitting sportsmen against sportsmen.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
fowl_minded
New member
Sometimes, i am yet to see some form of rebuttal that makes any sense whether here or anywhere else, just wish I would've started it this way.
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Topgun 30-06
Active member
People with closed minds such as you appear to have would say that!
fowl_minded
New member
Closed minded? are you kidding me, I have said numerous times that.......I am all for everyone just getting along and using what we have with respect for one another, it doesn't matter to me if you float, run a jet, wade, skip rocks I don't care. Go out and have fun thats whats its all about. I don't know how much more open minded you can get? Why don't you read my post above instead of glancing over it and try and come up with some sort of rebuttal cause its all the facts Jack!
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Sure, as long as YOU don't have to give anything up or compromise on anything, its all good. As long as YOUR fun isn't disrupted...
fowl_minded
New member
Shit, I thought you would've been a little happier with me after getting my head on straight and owning up to my biggest mistake in the whole deal, lining a couple facts out. Let me ask you this Buzz....... What are THEY giving up? AND THE ANSWER IS ....... NOTHING! How is closed minded wanting everyone to be able to use it with respect for both it and the other people?
BuzzH
Well-known member
I've already given up plenty...you're just too blind and dumb to see it and wouldn't have the capacity to know the difference even if I wrote it in crayon.
Good luck on your quest...you'll need it.
Good luck on your quest...you'll need it.
Northwoods Labs
Well-known member
Motorized boats certainly do cause erosion of banks and lakeshores. This is pretty much a settled fact.
I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a similar proposition for certain rivers in northern Wisconsin and the UP that I fish. Large motorized boats and jet skis have become very disruptive, it gets worse every year.
As for this proposal in Montana, it looks like there are some good points and possible bad points. I guess some folks would rather just rant about it on the internet than become educated on the issue and make informed comments that are coherent.
I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a similar proposition for certain rivers in northern Wisconsin and the UP that I fish. Large motorized boats and jet skis have become very disruptive, it gets worse every year.
As for this proposal in Montana, it looks like there are some good points and possible bad points. I guess some folks would rather just rant about it on the internet than become educated on the issue and make informed comments that are coherent.
fowl_minded
New member
No you are the dumb one that is to blind and CLOSED MINDED to see the facts that I just pointed out. And have no response whatsoever to the facts that i have stated above on why they want to close stuff down. Your response of get off the cross we need the wood, thats your clue to me. Read the facts above and come at me with something
BuzzH
Well-known member
Lots of people on this thread have come at you with facts, learn to read...and brush up on your comprehension.
You don't have the desire, ambition, or knowledge base to comprehend any facts that have already been presented, why in the hell would I waste my time pointing out more? Just so you can ignore those too?
Shallow minds and shallow water both freeze first...do you comprehend that?
fowl_minded
New member
Are you serious about the bank deal, with the drastic changes rivers make each and every year depending on run-off tell me how you could legitimately measure that. I don't know what kind of rivers good old Michigan has but out here, one year the river could go straight and the next year there is three islands and some how it makes a dogleg left in the exact same spot. They always change.
As far as the rant, I know my case started out shitty and I've been working on it, but you read all the facts above that are coming straight out of the petition and tell me that I'm wrong. I rant and rave because I stand up for what I believe in, just the way I'm wired when it comes to certain things.
fowl_minded
New member
See you don't even have an answer for me either, you have yourself a wonderful evening Buzz and good luck this hunting and fishing season. Show me one fact that I missed since I don't have the Miagie brain power as yourself. What the fact that there could be room for compensation, to hell with that if they get an inch the next thing you know they'll get a mile. The fact that the rivers have changed since you first fished then when you were a kid. Well yeah, over 50 plus years I'm sure they change a lot. The fact that technology evolves and everyone is nervous where its going. I already put some thing for that. The fact that guides and outfitters out number every fisherman drastically, and yet we don't want to limit them and take it away, no,no,no we wanna make it better for them cause we can eliminate a certain group. Don't you tell me that if something like this came up and affected you, that you wouldn't voice your opinion against it. All you got for me is a one liner.......and I comprehend it just fine.
I pulled everything that i posted above right off the petition and put them into "crayon terms" that way everyone can understand them.
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James Riley
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,821
Closed-minded is not listening to, comprehending, giving any thought to, or addressing, on the merits, the opinions of others.
Magnanimity, wanting to get along, being friendly, etc. does not equal open-mindedness. They are good things; don't get me wrong. It's just that they are not evidence of an open mind.
Let me give you an example. When I was in the Marine Corps I spent quite a bit of time in the field. But there were a few occasions where I was on base, living in an open squad bay. We had guys from all walks of life with all different music tastes. This was back in the days of the boom box, no head phones. You'd have some guys playing country, others rock, others soul, others this and others that. It was hard to hear your own music so you'd turn it up. Then the next guy would do likewise, and etc. Pretty soon it just sucked. You'd have to leave to get any peace and quiet. Or the Platoon Sgt. would come in and shut everyone down. Or fights would break out.
Some guy would always argue that every one could get along if they'd all just turn their shit down to a "reasonable" volume. The problem with that is, it fails to address the guy who wants to read in silence. And some music is just plain meant to be enjoyed louder than other music. An open mind would come to the table and try to address all sides and look for a compromise.
The squad bay was where we slept, too. And it was "home." Why should I have to leave to get some peace and quiet? And where was I to go? Ear protection did not cut it. The other guy wanted to chill and listen to his shit. Why should he have to leave?
Anyway, the point is, when you have a limited resource, like the sound of wind in the grass or trees, the lapping of the waves, the call of a bird, the splash of a fish, things like, oh, you know, NATURE (yes, I know the irony of all caps), it would be nice to be able to enjoy it without all the crap one usually associates with New York City, like some motor head tearing up the silence. But yeah, the creators of din need a place too, right? Well discussing these issues and addressing arguments upon the merits is the sign of an open mind, even if no agreement can be reached. I think some folks aren't seeing a whole lot of that here.
Hope that helps.
Bambistew
Well-known member
Are you guys experiencing the mini jetboat revolution yet? Streams that were basically open for inertube traffic now have these little boats ripping up and down them.
Fowl you should do a bit of reserch on boat traffic wake as it relates to seam bank erosion. Some rivers are not really affected, while others can be tremendously. Many rivers in MT have very low sinuosity and don't meander much. There is also a big difference in hydraulics between flood flow and wave action.
Fowl you should do a bit of reserch on boat traffic wake as it relates to seam bank erosion. Some rivers are not really affected, while others can be tremendously. Many rivers in MT have very low sinuosity and don't meander much. There is also a big difference in hydraulics between flood flow and wave action.
20 years ago there were very few 4 wheelers and no such thing as a side by side. Now every truck has one. There is plenty of damage done by them that no one thought would happen. To bad BHA wasn't around back then to get in front of the atv groove.
fowl_minded
New member
I appreciate your input James and I see what you are saying. I guess with that in the big picture I am close minded because it's not right. Taking something away from sportsman in today's day and age is wrong. We got enough shit going on in the world and to be taking away someone's escape from it all isn't right. Especially when another group of sportsman with special interest is doing it to another group of sportsman, just my opinion. I just fail to see how any of the overcrowded situations and environmental issues caused by motorized watercraft is the real issue of this whole deal. When really people both floating or running a boat are out there to do what they love and are their hopefully in respect of one another and cherish what we got. I know I am its not my goal to go out and be on the rivers only to ruin it for someone else. I steer clear of drift boats, rafts waders....you name it. I'm out there for a good time and I just don't see any benefit of something like this.
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