Private beef out of our public land.

[BuzzH]

The dept's were understaffed 20 yrs ago. Acreage to cover has not reduced. Scope & duties most surely has increased.
I am not against proper use of our public lands,grazing included. Overgrazing & abuse of permits is not acceptable to me. Same as extraction leaving messes everywhere that we pay to clean up,for the rest of our lives.

To the other statement,the only vehicles I see BLM,USFW,& half the FS is unmarked vehicles.White ,silver,gray,black,maroon trucks & SUV's w/usgov plates,no other markings besides radio antena & lights hidden in grill & along windshield.
You rarely see them in stores,cafes,gas stations anymore here.Just driving on hwy.
Someone asked me where they all live now.
They used to be part of the community.
I'm pretty sure folks in OR getting death threats during Bundy siege has something to do with it. I do know they get them here. If I happen to run into any employees now they are usually in pairs,very wary/guarded & not very friendly if you ask a ? now ....if you see one.

There's reasons for all that. As to the vehicles, that aren't green anymore, they are all leased fleet vehicles. Most districts are realizing its substantially cheaper to do that than own and maintain the green fleet vehicles.

As to folks not using their Gov. vehicles, they cant use them for anything other than work unless they are in travel status. Then you can use the vehicle to go to restaurants, laundry cleaning facilities, grocery stores, and church. That's it. Our fleet manager gets numerous calls every year from concerned citizens regarding our vehicles being parked at a restaurant or grocery store.

You're also correct that Government workers don't work alone a lot, and again for good reason. When I started working for the FS in 1987, things were way different. When we made contact in the woods, people would ask if the huckleberries were ripe, where to find some firewood, etc. In the last 10-12 years things have changed dramatically. We've had people pass our government vehicles and wave pistols at us, been flipped off for no reason, cussed at, etc. Happens quite frequently, to the point many don't report such incidents any more. These incidents flat didn't happen for the first 15-20 years I worked for the feds...just didn't.

Here's a classic example...in October of 2016 my work partner and I found a stash of stolen tools, motorcycles, etc. at an old mine site on FS land. We reported it in the evening and the County Sheriff wanted to meet us at the trailhead the next day and take him and one of this deputies to the site.

Stash:

We hopped on ATV's and took the Sheriff right up to this stash of stolen property, about 5K worth or stuff it turns out and when we rounded the last corner, here is the guy that stole the stuff standing there. The sheriff arrested the guy and we helped them load up a pickup with all the stolen stuff:

We went back to the trailhead and found this on our windshield. Mind you, the "loading dock" was probably installed in the 1930's and was literally falling apart. The trailhead has room for probably 30-40 vehicles and trailers and from what I could tell, nobody had used that "loading dock" for decades. Finally, we parked our ATV trailer and truck parallel to it way out of the way if anyone decided they wanted to use it. Made no difference...the gov plates is all it took:

As time goes on, there is just more and more hostility displayed by the public toward federal employees. I also serve on our Safety Committee and we talk about this stuff all the time. IMO, its only a matter of time before one of our employees is murdered for no reason other than they work for the "Feds".

So, am I more cautious now than 20 years ago? Yes...and I don't go out of my way to make contact with the public. I want to do my job, and return home in one piece, that's it.

 

[waygoner]

Is this an issue with ranchers putting more animals than they are supposed to and keeping animals on federal grazing leases longer then they are supposed to or is this an issue with USFS staff in charge of grazing leases allowing more animals than the land can support which leads to overgrazing and other damage?

Can anyone tell me who to contact to get the details on grazing leases? I have a suspicion that where I hunt the animals are left on longer (weeks) than they should be.

 

[Nameless Range]

Dang Buzz.

 

[Straight Arrow]

IMO, its only a matter of time before one of our employees is murdered for no reason other than they work for the "Feds".

It saddens me to agree. Not long after NRA"s LaPierre used the phrase "jack-booted thugs", a USFS maintenance worker was assaulted by being hit over the head with a shovel by some anti-guvment wacko ... merely because the victim was a government employee.

 

[BuzzH]

Dang Buzz.

Yeah, no good deed goes unpunished. Found and returned $5k worth of stolen property and apprehended a thief/meth head...just don't park "by" that "unloading dock".

I have some other stories nearly as entertaining. One was having our ATV trailer unhooked from the truck and shoved off the bank into the weeds...just strange the way some people react to the "feds". Came back to my work truck another time, parked in a pretty remote spot, and had white supremacist propaganda on the windshield...that was a bit creepy.

 

[BuzzH]

It saddens me to agree. Not long after NRA"s LaPierre used the phrase "jack-booted thugs", a USFS maintenance worker was assaulted by being hit over the head with a shovel by some anti-guvment wacko ... merely because the victim was a government employee.

I hear you...I'll be eligible to retire in just over 6 years and if things don't change, I'll be going out as soon as I can.

 

[scubohuntr]

Grazing is a vital part of grassland management. The second, and apparently lesser known, part of this is that proper management is a vital part of grazing. Understaffed and underfunded offices don't have any way to actually police all the leases, so it ends up on the "honor system" all too often. The worst is generally State Trust Land. Grazed right down to the roots and kept there all year. There are some morons out there who think a grazing lease gives them some kind of title to the land. That's not a Federal lands issue, that's a cousins shouldn't breed issue. Nobody is getting rich grazing Federal land. There are some rich people doing it, but they got their money elsewhere (mineral rights). There are cost share programs out there helping to fund things like exclusion fencing in riparian areas; it's harder to do that on Federal lands due to paperwork, but not impossible. Read frontier stuff to find out how "pristine" the rangeland was with bison. They don't poop rainbows either, people. Bison are cattle. You can still see wallows out here over a hundred years after the bison. The difference is the bison grazed and moved, which is what rotational grazing is meant to simulate. Grasses evolved with grazers, and without grazing they don't flourish. Stop the grazing and you invite invasive weeds to take over. No grazing is as harmful as overgrazing in the long term.

 

[hank4elk]

BuzzH, I do not know how Gov.purchases work anymore. But the FS firefighting trucks/veh. are all green or green/white still here. BLM still have logos on FF equipment too. The BLM Rangers have a couple out of Gallup still that are marked,but they never get south of the Malpais. Socorro office folks serve Catron co. & they are all in the unmarked ones now.
I hear ya on the CHANGE.
Retired 10 yrs ago & do not miss having to carry a weapon to do a maintenance job. Got stabbed that year too.
But we used to see Gov.folks even off work around before. Not now.
I did see a whole hotshot crew in the Largo having breakfast the otherday. Just off the lines heading back to AZ. The owner & I bought them breakfast. They serve hundreds of take out meals for firefighters.

 

[Lawnboy]

My father who’s retired, was a lifetime forest service fisheries biologist. The other issue I see is the infighting that goes on within the agencies in regards to whichever department you’re working in. It seemed the timber guys wanted to cut all the timber my dad wanted to preserve streams the grazing guy wants to graze every inch of the land and the mining guy wants to mine everything. I’m not sure what the answer is but I know my father got sick and tired of dealing with it within the agencies themselves.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Sounds like a lot of people all over who are anti anything government. That is until they need something from the big bad gubment or they can benefit from it.
Lots of ignorant people out there.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I think it's like most issues there are always some bad people that make the rest look bad. I'm not on the side of the ranchers that over graze leases and chase hunters away and act like they own public land. I am on the side of the ranchers that take care of the land work 365 days a year to help feed the world. Getting rid of cattle grazing on public Lands would get rid of alot of jobs and would make alot smaller cow herd meaning more expensive meat. Even tho sonlme of the lease prices on public grazing may be under priced at least there is income to the gov from those leases. I have hunted public land with cattle that didn't look like should be trusted very far but deffinately alot less intimidating then a bison. Also not sure what the difference would be drinking water with cattle manure and piss vs bison manure and piss.

There is NO income to the Federal Government from grazing leases. It cost us taxpayers hundreds of millions to subsidize grazing in the western states. I agree with Hank, I see plenty of Ranchers abusing their leases.

 

[PrairieHunter]

There is NO income to the Federal Government from grazing leases. It cost us taxpayers hundreds of millions to subsidize grazing in the western states. I agree with Hank, I see plenty of Ranchers abusing their leases.

According to this data for South Dakota, the fair market price for an AUM is between $20 and $45.

http://igrow.org/livestock/beef/considerations-on-pasture-rental-costs/

I believe the feds charge $1.35 per AUM in South Dakota.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Nobody is getting rich grazing Federal land. There are some rich people doing it, but they got their money elsewhere (mineral rights).

I personally know some exceptions to this "rule".
I'm sure I don't happen to live in the only area where public land ranchers are able to expand faster than private land ranchers

 

[bornintherut]

I think it's like most issues there are always some bad people that make the rest look bad. I'm not on the side of the ranchers that over graze leases and chase hunters away and act like they own public land. I am on the side of the ranchers that take care of the land work 365 days a year to help feed the world. Getting rid of cattle grazing on public Lands would get rid of alot of jobs and would make alot smaller cow herd meaning more expensive meat. Even tho sonlme of the lease prices on public grazing may be under priced at least there is income to the gov from those leases. I have hunted public land with cattle that didn't look like should be trusted very far but deffinately alot less intimidating then a bison. Also not sure what the difference would be drinking water with cattle manure and piss vs bison manure and piss.

Good point about the bad apples ruining things for others. As far as the type of piss, it's just that one is indigenous and one is not.

 

[bornintherut]

Grazing is a vital part of grassland management. The second, and apparently lesser known, part of this is that proper management is a vital part of grazing. Understaffed and underfunded offices don't have any way to actually police all the leases, so it ends up on the "honor system" all too often. The worst is generally State Trust Land. Grazed right down to the roots and kept there all year. There are some morons out there who think a grazing lease gives them some kind of title to the land. That's not a Federal lands issue, that's a cousins shouldn't breed issue. Nobody is getting rich grazing Federal land. There are some rich people doing it, but they got their money elsewhere (mineral rights). There are cost share programs out there helping to fund things like exclusion fencing in riparian areas; it's harder to do that on Federal lands due to paperwork, but not impossible. Read frontier stuff to find out how "pristine" the rangeland was with bison. They don't poop rainbows either, people. Bison are cattle. You can still see wallows out here over a hundred years after the bison. The difference is the bison grazed and moved, which is what rotational grazing is meant to simulate. Grasses evolved with grazers, and without grazing they don't flourish. Stop the grazing and you invite invasive weeds to take over. No grazing is as harmful as overgrazing in the long term.

Good points Scubohuntr, to which I now have a different perspective on my original post that started all this. I should have prefaced the comments with an emphasis on overcrowded grazing, which is clearly what is polluting my September elk hole. See what responsible and respectful dialogue can do?

 

[MTGomer]

As far as the type of piss, it's just that one is indigenous and one is not.

When you could shit through a screen door and never touch a wire, does it matter if the piss came from an indigenous urethra?

 

[bornintherut]

You seem to throw ALL public grazing into the same bucket ….. "the bad bucket". I visit ranchers every spring and fall out west. Don't blame the ranchers.... the government allows the grazing. Talk to the government official who decides the number of cattle allotted per acres. Ask him the condition of the public land... he's the expert. This official keeps the public lands in an acceptable condition... if not then the allotments are cut back next year. This year, because of low rain conditions the public lands in one area were off limits until a later time period. I walk these public lands that the cattle graze and I have no complaints about the condition of the lands. In most cases it's hard to tell that that cattle have even been in these areas.

good luck to all
the dog

Those are good points for sure. Though it's not consistent unfortunately

 

[bornintherut]

When you could shit through a screen door and never touch a wire, does it matter if the piss came from an indigenous urethra?

I see your point but the beef around here out number the Bison. Like another guy said on here. I should have prefaced my original statement with an emphasis on over crowded beef.

I bet there's a number for X many of beef per Y acres is sustainable. My point is that in my September elk hole, it's way over crowded.

 

[bornintherut]

Some grazing is good in my opinion, but I am tired of seeing areas that have been absolutely destroyed by cattle i.e. Elk habit, deer etc. I just think we may need to regulate some of it a bit differently is all.

That apparently makes two of us I guess.

 

[bornintherut]

"All those irrigation tanks and constructive use of ungulates to enhance the land is valuable to me as well as to ranchers."


Constructive is the key word. Needs to be responsible too. Good commie rant.