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New Mexico HM 94

Lots of Whereas in that proposal. Sounds like residents want less landowner tags issued....and those tags offered to res hunters. I could get on board if they would bump raise that bs 6% non-res pool quota. But not holding my breath.
 
I agree LWC55. They aren't going to harm resident hunters, resident guides, or resident landowners. That leaves the average DIY non-resident to foot the bill in NM again. More than likely about 90% of those unused tags are cow elk tags which non-residents are already restricted from. If they go to the average NM resident that's great but I don't know how they are going to do that through the existing E-Plus system. It's the " increasing the number and percentage of licenses issued to New Mexico residents" that is suspect.
 
Everyone gets screwed in NM unless you own land. Around half of elk tags go to landowners. And an outrageous amount goes to outfitter draw tags.

Nonresidents may foot the bill. But the landowner and outfitter tags are filling the political coffers.
 
And House Memorials mean jack squat. We need some real teeth to reform the elk tag distribution in NM. Self guided public land Nonresidents want more opportunity? Get rid of outfitter and landowner tags.
 
1st off,I'm a landowner enrolled in Outside the COER E-plus program for 9 yrs. RO,deeded lands.
LO tags do not come out of draw,but in addition too.
They cut our tags in half after the herds grew & doubled the draw. Twice the hunters on same public land & big loss of $ for NMG&F.
More elk than ever on the ranches. I do know many ranchers that do not use all their tags.It's called wise herd quality management.
Agree system needs tweeking & think all should be RO. But do this take away where I live & you will find access even harder & more people on same public land at the same time.

This is typical NMWF divide & cause a stink BS. Only the NM entitlement crowd will gain,no extra NR tags for cows. & those hunts do not all sell out.
The change from 20/80 was wrong & cost NM $. Should be 6% Outfitter Pool(Yes they bring in big $ to NM) & 12% for NR. ......Or double the cost of Res.Fees to make up some of the $ loss.
You folks should be more worried about the sale or transfer of our public lands. Not pissing off folks you don't like for spite or greed.Folks that helped build the elk herds we in NM have.
That would be swell. All state land & not public lands anymore. Read the NM State Lands Trust info some time.
Try and hunt that.
Cause I know most ranchers here do not cotton to trespassers. MHO
 
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I know LO tags don't come off the top. I am going to assume that those 8,000 Authorizations that aren't being used are also outside the COER. Most are probably cow as well. I do think the LO system needs to be in place. I don't necessarily care for the unit wide stuff. Sure the landowner are supposed to open access to all hunters, but that's difficult information to acquire and goes beyond the purpose of why they have landowner tags to begin with. Protect your land from damage done by animals, and a gift for paying your property taxes. Getting rid of the system entirely will only hurt non residents.
 
Got an e-mail from my new Congresswoman ,Gail Armstrong, it has been rolled. Take that to mean dumped back to commitee?
She's a rancher,major construction business owner in NM & they run a Outfitter/guide business too.
 
For the record, I support LO tags in concept and on principle. We need responsible land owners to help manage the land for elk and they should be incentivized to do so. Getting rid of LO tags doesn't move elk onto public land. The current E-Plus distribution does seem disproportionate though. And I'd still like to see the outfitter pool reduced (or eliminated) until I hear a compelling argument to support it.

Still prefer the NM to a point system.
 
LO tags are part of the landscape. 50% of the tags are excessive. Cut if to 25% and I am fine.

Thought of buying property in the Gila. LO tags are the incentive!
 
Totally agree on the need to rework the E-Plus system.
Mainly the UW provision & how much land needed to qualify. I know several who get a MB tag for less than 40 ac. One guy has a berry farm on 5 & gets a tag.Now that place & others can fence out elk to deal with the problem. His biggest problem is getting the berries picked. No labor.lol
Giving these folks tags that can be used in the whole unit & ability of getting 10k for a 16a or 15 tag just smells to me. Or be given a UW tag for a different unit than where their ranch is located ,smells to me.
Signing up for COER E-Plus UW Tags, w/maps of property needed to do so & not having any info on where these lands are & where the public is suppossed to be able to hunt and just find locked gates or no trespassing signs up,stinks to me.

Like I said I am in an outside the COER unit that gets RO tags for deeded lands if you qualify. I only have 140 fenced acres w/windmill well that pumps year round & provides the only water for hundreds of critters in my area. I had to submit maps of my land, deed survey of said lands,where the land is on BLM map,and evidence of elk on land. I was originally given 2MB& 4 cow tags & got those tags for 6 years.I get 1 MB & 2 cow tags now & they doubled the draw hunts.So twice the hunters on same acerage of public lands.State now looses hundreds of thousands of $ in tag fees from RO tags.
I could not give away a cow tag the 1st 2 tears,and only got paid for a couple bull tags,$800. The guy next to me gets $3k for MB & $500 for cow tags now,every year. He is in a co-op of ranches that make up 16k of prime land to hunt & that helps. I put together 2 co-ops & did not fair nearly so well. So I am back to just stand alone on my own merits.
Took me 2 years to pay off my windmill rebuild job after bulls fighting knocked my well pick up off line and wear the pump out. I built a fence barrier. I lower fence tops @crossings & raise it where the antelope &calves get thru.
I do run some cattle IF & when do I have good grass for a couple mo.'s before Oct. I have let several draw hunters hunt here too.

As far as the Outfitter pool goes ,that is simple welfare to me. Good outfitters make good $ if their GOOD.
If anything they should get maybe 5% of draw & NR should get 12%.
Now residents get all the draw cow tags but want all the LO tags added to the fun too.
And be able to just come & go as they please.
Not going to happen on my land.
Oh and the take away & demand has driven the LO tag price way up here.
A hunt on the Great Western ranch is $10-15k. lol Rancher gets maybe $3k for a MB & $500 for cows on those big ranches. In my unit.RO.guys across the Hwy in 15 get $5-10K for a UW LO tag,easy,with no outfitter involved except to drive the prices.
 
hank4elk said:
Totally agree on the need to rework the E-Plus system.
Mainly the UW provision & how much land needed to qualify. I know several who get a MB tag for less than 40 ac. One guy has a berry farm on 5 & gets a tag.Now that place & others can fence out elk to deal with the problem. His biggest problem is getting the berries picked. No labor.lol
Giving these folks tags that can be used in the whole unit & ability of getting 10k for a 16a or 15 tag just smells to me. Or be given a UW tag for a different unit than where their ranch is located ,smells to me.
Signing up for COER E-Plus UW Tags, w/maps of property needed to do so & not having any info on where these lands are & where the public is suppossed to be able to hunt and just find locked gates or no trespassing signs up,stinks to me.

Like I said I am in an outside the COER unit that gets RO tags for deeded lands if you qualify. I only have 140 fenced acres w/windmill well that pumps year round & provides the only water for hundreds of critters in my area. I had to submit maps of my land, deed survey of said lands,where the land is on BLM map,and evidence of elk on land. I was originally given 2MB& 4 cow tags & got those tags for 6 years.I get 1 MB & 2 cow tags now & they doubled the draw hunts.So twice the hunters on same acerage of public lands.State now looses hundreds of thousands of $ in tag fees from RO tags.
I could not give away a cow tag the 1st 2 tears,and only got paid for a couple bull tags,$800. The guy next to me gets $3k for MB & $500 for cow tags now,every year. He is in a co-op of ranches that make up 16k of prime land to hunt & that helps. I put together 2 co-ops & did not fair nearly so well. So I am back to just stand alone on my own merits.
Took me 2 years to pay off my windmill rebuild job after bulls fighting knocked my well pick up off line and wear the pump out. I built a fence barrier. I lower fence tops @crossings & raise it where the antelope &calves get thru.
I do run some cattle IF & when do I have good grass for a couple mo.'s before Oct. I have let several draw hunters hunt here too.

As far as the Outfitter pool goes ,that is simple welfare to me. Good outfitters make good $ if their GOOD.
If anything they should get maybe 5% of draw & NR should get 12%.
Now residents get all the draw cow tags but want all the LO tags added to the fun too.
And be able to just come & go as they please.
Not going to happen on my land.
Oh and the take away & demand has driven the LO tag price way up here.
A hunt on the Great Western ranch is $10-15k. lol Rancher gets maybe $3k for a MB & $500 for cows on those big ranches. In my unit.RO.guys across the Hwy in 15 get $5-10K for a UW LO tag,easy,with no outfitter involved except to drive the prices.
Click to expand...


Lots of good info there Hank and as always I appreciate the insight. Was looking at buying 150 acres a few months ago but it was a little rich for my taste. Trying to convince my dad to buy a ranch out there as he's looking to retire, but he wants everything (100+ acres, access but no neighbors, in the coer, and for a good price). One thing that sticks out is you said you used to get 2MB and 4 cow tags. Now you get 1MB and 2 cow. I know you've said multiple times the draw and E-PLUS are mutually exclusive. But look at what happened. They increased the draw and you had your tags sliced. Some oversight apparently needs to be had, but like most things in life its all about who you know. Which is pretty infuriating for honest people who want to play by the rules.

As a non-resident, I would love to see the outfitters or third party pushed aside. Let hunters deal directly with landowners. I know game and fish have an E-plus list, but it could be easier to navigate and that would help guys out. As you said the outfitters are the ones that drive prices up. I'd also like to see the UW crap done away with. E-PLUS is for guys and gals like yourself to protect your land from destruction. 2 fighting bulls taking out a well is pretty wild...and probably pretty damn depressing as well.

Regarding the outfitter pool, yeah it is welfare for outfitters. The theory is they're the ones spending money in the state and paying taxes on the income. Non-residents can still use an outfitter whether or not the tags are from the draw or landowner.

Until then, I'll play the game and still use an outfitter.
 
Being outside the core elk range ,or what GF says is a core unit is what decides the outcome.
That and who is in charge of that unit I found. We got switched to NW NM division from SW division,even tho I am in SW/west central highlands .
Did not want to bring it up, but a quarter of the ranches did not get cut & the guy has been adding even smaller places to list with a MB tag,and not just 1 cow, like 2 ranches I know got cut too. That one place, the land is right next to the Ramah school,20 ac. Useless except at night,and if one was there in daylight, any stray shot would hit a house. Heard the owner was a buddy of the G&F guy...I know, no proof. Was told about several other who did not get cut & same story,heard he gets to hunt it & cut firewood. I know all about claims made by the public that are not true, but the head of the dept is a lot easier to deal with for me.
No crying for myself,happy to get what I get. Better than nothing and I am grateful.
I never thought I would own this much land in this magic place let alone get elk tags.
That stuff is for the folks I worked for building.Or the big ranchers I have known.
After wiping out the elk with tags many years ago they started the program here again 18 yrs ago or so with a more controlled method. And G&F elk biologist was the one who knew my place and issued original tags.
They did want to increase draw tags with more elk here than anytime in many years and I understand that. Cool,I was once a NR hunter too.
But the loss of $ generated & no tags for NR except LO tags ,does not make sense to my pea brain.

NM is very different...than anyplace in US. LOL
As for the fighting bulls here, I would not believe it till I saw it. Watching them go round & round thru a herd of cows & thru the dirt tank pond & back right in between legs of derrick and hear the metal bang then the whole section of fence go down including T-posts was something to see. But shoving the pick up pipe to the side of the 8" casing caused too much lateral stress on pump works & it wore out. It was good I rebuilt it and replaced the bullet holed cover bonnet so it is weatherproof paid off.I found out all about windmills,wells in NM & how my well is bigger,deeper than listed on State Eng. data sheet.We measured 394' deep & water @ 104',8" casing. Not water @ 85' & a 174' well with a 6". So they listed my neighbors well as mine and vice versa.Doesn't matter what number to me. And seeing gates folded in half, welded corrals broken by elk now has changed my mind on how much damage these big animals can cause. A quarter mile of fence down is nothing.Fencing costs @ $5k per mile adds up.

I will now use the solar pump system I got with help from RMEF Grant will pump straight out of a tank & irrigate some spots on the way to other tank in middle of my place. Just need to save for tank,pipes to divert & 1000' of 1 1/4' poly pipe...and rent a backhoe.LOL No Problemo....hah.
My well is pumping away, over flowing 2 drinkers and filling the dirt tank(pond to those in east) and I have 2 acres of streambed flats flooded.
It is an elk party every night again in the neighborhood. Tracks heading away to every mesa around my place.One herd goes to next door place after & hit their birdfeeder & little struggling lawn every morning & up the hill they go.

Words out...Elk Rage tonight at Camp Hank!! LOL
 
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Gotta love nepotism eh? Makes it all worthwhile seeing that every night. Seen youtube videos of bulls fighting. Craziness
 
hank4elk said:
I was originally given 2MB& 4 cow tags & got those tags for 6 years.I get 1 MB & 2 cow tags now & they doubled the draw hunts. So twice the hunters on same acerage of public lands.State now looses hundreds of thousands of $ in tag fees from RO tags.
Click to expand...

Dude, there are only 20 tags per hunt in unit 12. There is a metric schit ton of public land to hunt in there for 20 people to hunt on. All you need is a OnX Chip.

Dont believe me?
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/wp-...management-unit-map-boundaries-highres-12.pdf
 
12 is a non-COER unit. I don't understand it. It should be a great unit for state elk management. I think the outfitters and landowners have the market cornered as it is.
 
Dude/gal, there was only 30 total MB tags for years,now 60 MB & increase in bow & cows.
They cut hundreds of LO tags. From some ranches.

I know the unit well as I live in it & know the limited access points. Lived her almost 10 yrs & hunted it for 35.
Almost half the area is public lands. ,BLM & state. One third of the unit area is accessable to the BLM or state trust lands. The rest is surrounded by ranches or in the middle of them. And no camping on the state lands limits the places to camp.I can think of half a dozen spots on BLM with tree cover.I can count the water holes on public lands.
I personally can access way more than the average draw hunter due to knowledge of the unit,the ranchers & permission to access the land.
I also know many of the secret ways in thanks to having been there with my Garmin & onxmaps chip.
It is a good unit overall for elk numbers but not access overall.
You are most likely right about how the outfitter & LO deal works here. But cutting the ranchers tags who have been in the program for 15 yrs and do rely on that extra income to feed their cattle, did not help.They would much rather have cattle on their lands than hunters & elk eating them out of house & home.

I know one rancher who lost $14k in tags & the elk ate the rye they spent $10k to plant. They are now going to fence out the plowed fields and are actively driving the elk off.There used to be access to 5k acres of honeyhole at the back of the ranch.They lock their gates now. And they shut the water off when they do not have cattle on it.
I can think of several others who would meet you,the law or the elk with open sights now.
Trespassing has become a problem as has fence cutting. My neighbors put up a stupid private drive/no trespassing sign at the end of our road.

This is not working together for a common good. It is more of the wedge driving.
Any one can call from the participating ranch list to ask about available tags still. But there are now less for more $.
 
I just don't understand why G&F would not make 12 a COER unit. Certainly won't deny there are financial impacts to LO. I think they would have more stable tag allocations in COER. They need to be able to plan for that revenue, especially since it is a Ranch Only unit.

I was just listening to Jay Scott podcasts this week and his guests were outfitters from that area. They all said 12 was a great unit to guide in because of the low number of draw tags and high number of ranch only tags. Sounds like the outfitters were arguing with G&F biologists to get more tags. It could be legitimate. These guys know the land and the herds better than anyone. Again, I just don't understand why its not managed by the state. Lots of public land and lots of elk. Seems like everyone would benefit (except maybe outfitters) by making it a COER unit with UW LO tags and more public hunts.

Same goes for NW Sangre de Cristos (54-55s, 48, etc.). Difference there being less public land.
 
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