Lead Bullets and Poisoning

[Brudno]

I completely agree with research of lead shot affecting ducks geese and other small birds. We know how there digestive systems work and we have xrays of lead shot in there crops.

Raptors and other scavenger birds have a digestive system that operates in a different manner. They don't need to eat rocks to be able to digest food there gizzards rip flesh from bones,
fur, etc and they regurgitated it. From what I can tell there are no xrays of any bird of prey with retained lead in its digestive system. Something to think about.

 

[belly-deep]

This should give you a little context of before and after lead ban. Not sure how the numbers they present translate to survival or population growth.

Lead exposure in American black ducks after implementation of non-toxic shot. 2000. Journal of Wildlife Management 64:947-953.

Lead poisoning from the ingestion of spent shotgun pellets has been recognized as an important disease of North American waterfowl since Bellrose’s (1959) research >40 years ago. Nation-wide regulations banning the use of lead shot for waterfowl hunting were established in 1991. We compared the prevalence of lead exposure in American black ducks (Anas rubripes) wintering on 2 areas in Tennessee before (1986-88) and after the ban (1997-99) to assess the effect of the ban on lead shot on this species. Prevalence of elevated blood lead in black ducks declined by 44% from before (11.7% prevalence) to after (6.5% prevalence) the implementation of non-toxic shot.

I'm not arguing the lead shot ban. That one has certainly been beneficial to wildlife. We're talking about lead hunting bullets here.

 

[mdunc8]

For reasons Brudno discussed it's difficult to present direct evidence like we see in the waterfowl studies. However, if you look at all the possible origins of where the lead could be coming from, it seems to me that carcasses and gut piles are the most obvious choice.

 

[belly-deep]

For reasons Brudno discussed it's difficult to present direct evidence like we see in the waterfowl studies. However, if you look at all the possible origins of where the lead could be coming from, it seems to me that carcasses and gut piles are the most obvious choice.

I understand what you are saying.

What I am saying is, don't jump to conclusions on something over a few studies that do not conclusively prove anything. Banning lead ammo would be a huge blow to the shooting world and would contribute to the decline of youth in our sport greatly.

The first thing that needs to be proven is that lead from gutpiles is infact causing elevated lead levels in animals or birds.

The next thing that needs to be decided is, does it matter enough to warrant a radical change in our practices. Will the good it does outweight the bad?

You're wanting to act on the second issue before the first one is established. Lets go in order here...

 

[Ben Lamb]

There would be more of an impact if varmint hunters had to use copper bullets as opposed to lead, IMO.

As for kids, I don't see how spending $15 more on a box of ammo is going to reduce youth recruitment. In fact, we worked with folks at the Triple A outside of Helena to get a youth elk hunt put in place (was previously off limits to all hunting). One of the conditions mandated was that hunters had to use lead-free bullets. We had a long waiting list of kids who wanted to hunt elk on the place. The ammo concern was only mentioned once or twice.

Box of ammo - $44

Filling both tanks for my F-150 - $90

Rifle - $800

etc, etc, etc.

The ammo cost is one of the cheapest components to the hunt.

 

[mdunc8]

I'm not suggesting we act, although it would be nice if it were found to be an issue. I'm just asking that it gets recognized as a potential issue rather than blowing it off as some radical idea that "gun grabbers" are using in an attempt to ruin hunting/shooting. From what I gather, most people on hear are aware that it MIGHT be a problem. Some don't care, but at least they recognize that it MIGHT be real. Others want to sweep anything under the rug that may reflect poorly on hunting/shooting.

 

[shoots-straight]

I use 53 grain Barnes Triple shock bullets out of my .223 WSSM. It the best bullet for accuracy. I use it for coyotes, and hopefully a wolf. I load up Barnes MRX bullets for his .270 win., and TXS for my .280. I love the results.

 

[mdunc8]

I'm not much of a shot, so I try and limit myself to around 200 yards, so I'm guessing I wouldn't see much of a difference anyways.

 

[NChunter]

The cost of non-lead bullets to go on a big game hunt would not be a big deal. But a lead ban would affect target shooters, varmint hunters, plinkers, etc. Most kids I know learned to shoot with a .22. They used to be cheap to practice with, but not anymore, I can't imagine what they would cost if they had to be lead free. My son and I used to shoot hundreds of .22 rounds every weekend through rifles and pistols. But I can't afford to anymore. Maybe some of you have unlimited funds, but I have to watch every penny. I am sick to death of all the new government regulations. All levels of government spend more money every year, so of course we have to pay more taxes and fees. Ranting aside, if ammo manufacturers made non-lead bullets that performed better than lead for the same price as lead, this would not be an issue. We would not need to get the government involved or waste time debating studies. Just my opinion and my one and only comment on this thread.

 

[ringer]

Reminds me of that Al Gore global warming thingy. Sure glad we didn't allow ourselves to be taxed another $3500 a year on bogus agenda driven garbage. Very likely the same type of hysteria driven agenda at work here.

 

[mdunc8]

Reminds me of that Al Gore global warming thingy. Sure glad we didn't allow ourselves to be taxed another $3500 a year on bogus agenda driven garbage. Very likely the same type of hysteria driven agenda at work here.

I'm willing to bet you haven't read a single word of any published study on the topic and rely on word of mouth.

 

[MHMT]

From what I can tell there are no xrays of any bird of prey with retained lead in its digestive system.

Don't know if this is reliable or not.

 

[mdunc8]

BOOYAH!!!!!!:d

 

[IrishRover]

There was a recent study in ND that examined blood lead levels of people who ate game shot by lead bullets. This study was conducted after a radiologist examined 100 packages
of hunter shot game. About 60% contained lead fragments. The ND study found that the people who ate game regularly had blood lead levels about 50% higher than those who did not eat game. Now those game eating people may have been snacking on lead paint and not getting the lead from the hunters game. Seems to me, if humans blood lead levels rise from eating game with lead fragments and birds of prey also eat game with lead fragments their blood lead levels might go up too. So, you decide, go snack on some lead fragments or use some other alloy. Some of you act like you've already eaten too much lead.

 

[MHMT]

Something else to think about

ABSTRACT.—Research findings have heightened public health concern regarding the hazards of low dose
lead exposure to adults and children. In adults, studies have established the potential for hypertension, dec-
rements in renal function, subtle decline in cognitive function, and adverse reproductive outcome at blood
lead levels less than 25 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL). The developing nervous system of the fetus and
young child is particularly sensitive to the deleterious effects of lead, with adverse impacts on physical
growth and neurocognitive development demonstrable at blood lead levels less than 10 µg/dL. No low dose
threshold for these adverse developmental effects has been discerned. Epidemiological studies, and risk as-
sessment modeling presented in this paper, indicate that regular consumption of game meat harvested with
lead ammunition and contaminated with lead residues may cause relatively substantial increases in blood
lead compared to background levels, particularly in children. Because lead-free ammunition is an available
substitute, this risk is amenable to the public health strategy of primary prevention. Received 2 December
2008, accepted 12 December 2008.

link to full article:
http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_conference/PDF/0103%20Kosnett.pdf

 

[6speed]

Lead Content of Soil, Plants, Foods, Air,
and Chinese Herb Formulas
by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D., Director, Institute for Traditional Medicine, Portland, Oregon

Lead is the heaviest of the non-radioactive metals (atomic number 82; atomic weight 207) that naturally occur in substantial quantities in the earth's surface. Lead is present in all soils, rivers, lakes, and seawater. Despite its weight, lead is also in the air, a component of dust and of sea spray. Lead is present in the proportion of 16 parts per million (ppm) in igneous rocks, the most common ancient rock on the surface, and at an average of about 10 ppm in common soils that are far from sites of contamination; natural soils usually have less than 50 ppm of lead but are never lead free.

The most serious worldwide lead contamination has been due to the introduction of lead (in the form of tetraethyl and tetramethyl lead) into gasoline, starting in 1923, with billions of tons of lead released into the atmosphere in the vehicle exhaust. Most of the discharged lead lands on the soil, in the water, and on living organisms, particularly the plants that grow along the roadways. Although lead was phased out of gasoline in the U.S. in 1971, leaded gasoline is still being used in many countries, most notably in Africa. In Europe, the lead content of gasoline has been gradually reduced, but not eliminated. Leaded gasoline has been phased out in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Switzerland, and restricted to a maximum 0.15 grams/liter (about 150 ppm) in most countries, compared to earlier levels that were up to five times that amount (750 ppm, with reductions to 320 ppm in the mid-1990s). China announced its intention to eliminate lead from gasoline at the end of 1999, limiting the average lead content of gasoline to 0.005 grams/liter (5 ppm, similar to the content of unleaded gasoline). The 5 ppm standard has been adopted recently by several other countries as well.

Even when lead additives are removed from gasoline, smaller amounts of lead continue to be emitted from automobiles, trucks, and other vehicles. In addition to some natural lead in gasoline, the gradual loss of fine particles of metal, rubber, and other components that contain lead contributes to pollution, particularly in urban areas with high traffic density.

Lead first enters the food supply in significant quantities by contamination of the soil and by lead dust accumulating on the plants. The lead is taken up by plants through roots and leaves. The plant materials are eaten by humans, and animals that are eaten by humans gain lead from the plants they eat. Although proponents of vegetarian diets claim that meat is particularly contaminated by heavy metals, plant foods tend to have higher lead levels than animal foods because they can absorb and retain more lead than most animals. Animals have a low absorption rate of ingested lead and have physiological mechanisms to discharge the ingested lead; much is sequestered into the bones, which are usually not consumed by humans. By contrast plants are efficient at absorbing soil lead and retain the lead that has been taken up. About 7% of the lead in soil is taken up by plants (excessive lead will kill off the plants).

Lead from the atmosphere that lands on soils has low mobility and tends to stay in the top inch of soil. Therefore, shallow-rooted plants, such as grasses and common vegetables, are particularly vulnerable to picking up lead contamination that originated in the atmosphere. One of the main dietary sources of lead is from grains (a type of grass), and whole grains are particularly high since the fibrous seed coat retains minerals; the second main dietary source of lead is vegetables; meats are usually third.


The moral of the story, eat more meat.

 

[Drake4]

I propose a bill that will ban all agricultural operations until we can figure out if the condor is eating the rabbit that ate the lead contaminated lettuce.

 

[Brudno]

BOOYAH!!!!!!:d

As if your agenda wasn't already clear...More peregene data...one picture with nothing accompanying it. Is it a condor even? Is it sick? Was in digesting meat that may have been contaminated or is that metallic material lodged in its digestive system. Do we know whether or not its somthing thats going to pass through it system? That is nothing conclusive.

I think we get your point that the existence and activities of one species may or may not affect another species in an up or down way possibly.

 

[mdunc8]

I love you Brudno. Did you not see the little blue happy smiley face winking at you next to my post? I could see where you would have gotten upset had it been the red angry frowning face, but I didn't use that one on purpose.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I propose a bill that will ban all agricultural operations until we can figure out if the condor is eating the rabbit that ate the lead contaminated lettuce.

No. More. Bills!