Feral Horses Overgrazing

[sdgunslinger]

I surely won't argue that horses are not a much more mobil animal than cattle and will wander a wider range . However you want to argue the livestcok grazing issue though , I think horses will have to take their share of the blame , cause that's all they are , in my view. What we are seeing now in a few places is simply loose livestock (horses) running wild with no management to speak of....

It's quite a stretch for the wild horse fanatics to argue they are a native species cause horese were present 10000 years ago....maybe we need woolly mammoths , sabre toothed cats and a few other exotic extints back also to balance out the eco-system then .

Looking at the last link I put up , the pictures with it , and reading about hundreds of mustangs lined up to recieve their ration of trucked in water , pretty much puts the lie to the notion that wild horses will never pound a piece of range if their numbers get out of hand . At least , that's the view from where I sit .

 

[1_pointer]

I agree with SD, they will overgraze and should be managed accordingly. When game animals or livestock overgraze the range the numbers are thinned. I don't think it should be any different witht he Horses.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Well, I thought it was interesting that they said the origional horses were hunted to "near extinction". I guess they don't know for sure if they ever became extinct.

One of the places I see the wild horses is called a "Wild Horse Management Area" by the BLM. Cattle were taken out of there years ago so the horses have it to themselves. The land has healed up real well and there's no damage that I can see from the horses. The big difference is that they don't congregate and stay in the riparian zones. And there never seems to be more than about a dozen of them together at one time.

But I've said all along that I can understand how they might do damage somewhere if they aren't managed.

I will say that if we had an equal number of cattle and horses in an area the cattle would do a helluva lot more damage because of the way they congregate around water.

 

[1_pointer]

That could be true, but there is heap big amounts of evidence that whole cattle herds can be 'trained' not to stay in the riparian areas. Again, it relies on the one thing that is hardest to change, the human element of management.

 

[Lostagain]

IT= I think ya better just stick to import/export your dope cause its affecting ya.
The BLM guesstimates there are over 300 horses in the Pryors on range that would realistically support only 140-150. If that isn't overgrazing what is. Where are all the mambypambies screaming about this? This is public ground they are overgrazing. Where is the big uproar? Where's the lawsuits? Where's the lawyers and the screamers? What?
Oh this is feral horses that belong to the public on public ground and its alright if they eat it to nothing.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Lost, Maybe you missed where I said this: "And before you get all excited, I'm not on a save the wild horse campaign. I like seeing a few of them once in awhile, but I'm in favor of keeping them at real low numbers."

Please try to keep calm!

I don't think any animals should be allowed to destroy habitat because of overpopulation.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-04-2003 21:52: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

There should be permits on them..If you get some of these horses that the Gov. catchs, from what I have heard, you can't do much with them, cept give them a very good home...
I mean you can't even do some of the same things you can with domesticated horses, have basically put a wild horse on your ground and they are to stay some what that way. Just what I have heard...

 

[Muledeer4me]

Elkchsr, the wild horses can be broke and turned into something good.
It depend's on how old they are when taken in and the person doing the training.
I know the lady from Idaho the got one and went on to make a great indurance horse.
Have seen a number of them while I worked for a veterinarian.
Im not sure what percent of the one's rounded up make it to the adoption pen,but there is a big amount of them that are sent to some wild horse sacturary were they are kept.
Tha animal right's groups wont let them be used for food.

 

[Washington Hunter]

I bet they'd also make excellent dog food and/or glue!

 

[ELKCHSR]

Thanks Deb!!!

 

[Muledeer4me]

http://www.savewildhorses.org/help.htm

I found in interesting how even this save the wild horse site then goes into talking about public land's ranching.
But then following link's through these site's I found the same type of statment's running through the other animal right's site's,then slipping in the anti-hunting stuff.


http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=765&print=y

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-06-2003 09:34: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

MD4M,

I noticed the same thing about the sites IT uses for links. I think he's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Check out the debate on the Big Game board, and some of the sites he is refering to. Check out the old information he uses to mislead the uninformed. Information from anti-hunter types like Ralph Maughan.

The bleeding hearts will not allow the BLM to sell the feral horses for slaughter or what ever the high bidder chooses to do with them. So the BLM is force to spend millions rounding up these horses, and then collect peanuts selling them to people who promise not to send them to slaughter. Funny thing is, is that most of them end up in slaughter anyway. It's just a big game, and a waste of taxpayer dollars.

IT likes this game because he can then claim that the BLM losses money by leasing grazing rights. Only problem is that if the BLM didn't lease their land, they would lose evan more money. But then just think of all the feral horse habitat we would then have!

Paul

 

[Michaelr]

another case of ithicas sportmans issues.

The problem isn't about the horses abusing their habitat.

the problem is this isn't ithicas idea of a good topic. so he is doing his best to turn it into another tras the rancher thread
He did the same thing with the wolf threads.
they weren't what he thought we should discuss so he tried to turn them into something else.

MD, hit the nail on the head "the little boy who cries wolf"
we have heard so much about ranchers that it is getting really old.

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> we have heard so much about ranchers that it is getting really old.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the turning of every post into a pissing match between a few people is MUCH worse! It goes on more often that the quoted statement and just kills all good dialogue on the subject.

 

[Michaelr]

You know sometimes when you own a ranch, are friends with ranchers, and have grown up in that lifestyle, Reading the crap IT spouts can be taken rather abrasivly, even personally.
Granted there are ranchers and ranches that need to change, but this is true in all walks of life.
One of the big problems I have is the stereotyping that goes on in all of his posts.

Why don't the rest of you tell us what you and your friends and family do for a living, and for fun. We can do a bunch of stereotyping and brand them as criminals, call them stupid, make broad brushing statements that make them look bad, and see how you all take it??

 

[Ithaca 37]

You're all welcome to post any links you want to showing support for your opinions. But you don't very often do it. Instead you try to turn every topic into criticism of me. I think it's because you can't find anything or anybody that supports your view except some wackos!

Go back and read every post from the beginning of this topic and notice where the personal attacks start!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-06-2003 15:14: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Muledeer4me]

"You're all welcome to post any links you want to showing support for your opinions. But you don't very often do it. Instead you try to turn every topic into criticism of me. I think it's because you can't find anything or anybody that supports your view except some wackos!"

Ya think statement's like this have anything to do with why other's make statement's about him?

That is the type of comment he post anytime one of us tryes to post links to site's that don't agree with him.
Most of us have posted other link's,we get called Stupid .
Like I have said and it seems other's have the same feelings ,this isnt about posting information so everyone can make up there own mind or find out the other side to Ithaca's post's --its about Ithaca having a place to post his agenda and get on his

 

[MarlandS]

Well every one has agendas and unless you are a newsman you're not expected to be unbiased, that is why we debate.

Like 1-P says it gets old having everything turn to bash Ithaca instead of bash the issue.

Mike the reason everything turns to "rip the Rancher" is only because they are the highest profile users of the largest portion of the land.... it's a burden they are going to have to bear the same as hunters have the burden of everything good and bad about wildlife. of course I may be all screwed up here........

 

[1_pointer]

Mike- I don't think being associated with ranching or ranchers calls for a pissing contest. If his statements are that off base it shouldn't be too hard to prove him wrong. Some of the things I've posted are counter to some of his. If you can back up what your saying I think Ithaca would be willing/able to accept it, you just have to do it. Play the game, instead of bitch about losing it!

FYI- I'm a graduate student, I like to hunt and fish in my VERY limited spare time. My wife is a registered nurse who is also getting a graduate degree. She likes to work around the house, play with our dog, and sew in her spare time. Fire away!!! Just don't expect a response, I don't know you from Adam (though I would like to meet you someday!) so what you post on an internet board about me or mine has no bearing on how I'll sleep tonight.

Really people, these pissing matches are pathetic. But, if that's the game to be played here so be it. I'm suprised that ADULTS are not able to let things slide, but in stead try to attack, belittle, whatever a person at any given chance.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-06-2003 16:38: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

oh bullshit!!!!!
I did put up alot of good info on the wolf threads, and in my estimation was clearly winning the debate.
did you bother to read the report I put a link to 1-pointer?
All ithica did was dissmiss it with a statement that Mr. Kay is a "wacko"
same for all the other links I posted.
I could say the same thing to every link he puts up but that would be to easy.
Instead I have tried to call attention to it.
Alot of the groups he calls wackos are made up of people just like you and me. concerned people trying to get their message out. If he wants people to respect his view and listen to him then he also owes respect to others with a different viewpoint.