Dubya and The Forest Circus Caught Lying About "Healthy Forests"....

[JoseCuervo]

FRom the Adminstration that "Can't think of any mistakes they have made", comes more lies and misleading of the American Public. This time, on the Healthy Forests.... Just exactly when can you trust the Dubya Administration????

Forest Service pamphlet criticized
Logging photos said to misrepresent Sierra
4/12/2004

RENO -- The Forest Service has been accused of misrepresenting forest conditions by using misleading photographs in a brochure that urges more logging to prevent wildfires in the Sierra Nevada.

The pamphlet, created by a public relations firm, explains that fire risks have risen as the Sierra's forests have grown more dense in the past century. Six small black-and-white photos spanning 80 years appear beside descriptions of how the "forests of the past" had fewer trees and less underbrush, making them less susceptible to fire.

The 1909 photo shows an open, parklike forest with large trees spaced widely apart. More trees and underbrush appear in each successive picture -- 1948, 1958, 1968, 1979 -- and finally a photograph thick with trees in 1989.

"Today's forests, dense with green, may seem beautiful, but in fact are deadly," the pamphlet reads. "Our old-growth forests are choking with brush, tinder-dry debris, and dead trees which make the risk of catastrophic fire high."

However, the 1909 photo does not depict natural conditions -- it was taken just after the forest had been logged.

And the pictured forest is nowhere near the Sierra Nevada. It is in Montana.

"I was looking at the picture, and I thought it looked awful familiar," said Chad Hanson, director of the John Muir Project in Cedar Ridge, Calif. "I started looking around and sure enough, the industry has used it before in Montana. It's from the Bitterroot Valley."

Then Hanson used a magnifying glass to make another discovery.

"You can see huge slash piles and stumps in the background," he said. "They give the impression this represents natural, presettlement conditions, but the picture was taken after logging had occurred and most of the trees had been removed."

The same shot taken near Como Lake in the Bitterroot National Forest southwest of Hamilton, Mont., appeared in a 1983 Forest Service research report entitled "Fire and Vegetative Trends in the Northern Rockies: Interpretations from 1871-1982 photographs."

The caption in that report said the photo shows "cleanup operations on the Lick Creek timber sale."

The site also appears in another agency research paper in 1995 depicting an old-growth ponderosa pine stand at Lick Creek in 1909 "immediately before partial cutting." That photo shows a forest three to four times more dense than the postlogging photo.

The agency has used the same photos -- minus the prelogging shot -- in support of logging in the Pacific Northwest, too.

"I can't believe they are still doing this," said Timothy Ingalsbee of the Western Fire Ecology Center in Eugene, Ore. He said the agency used the same sequence of photos in 1998 "and misrepresented it to make it seem like it came from the forest just above Ashland, Oregon."

Forest Service officials confirmed the photos in the Sierra brochure are from Montana.

They were used because they were typical of pine stands across much of the West, officials said.

"It is difficult to find a good series of repeat photographs of the same place over almost 100 years," Forest Service spokesman Matt Mathes said.

"We used this one because it is an accurate record of how stands -- including those in the Sierra Nevada -- become increasingly dense without active management or wildfire," he said.

Although the photos in the six-page color brochure have no caption, Hanson said the Sierra Nevada is the only region discussed.

"The clear implication is that this is in the Sierra Nevada. It is very misleading," Hanson said.

The Forest Service spent $23,000 to produce and print 15,000 copies of the brochures as part of the "Forests for a Future" campaign that brought criticism from some members of Congress because the agency hired a private public relations firm.

Representatives Jay Inslee, Democrat of Washington, and Nick Rahall, Democrat of West Virginia, asked for an inspector general's investigation into whether the agency broke any laws by spending $90,000 on the contract with OneWorld Communications Inc. of San Francisco.

The Forest Service defends using outside help and said the photos from Montana were not intended to mislead.

Mathes said the fact that the forest was logged before the 1909 picture was taken does not matter.

"The idea here was to show increasing density over time, which visibly did occur," he said.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Busted!!! Any hunter who votes for Dubya and his "Healthy Forest" BS next November must be brain dead!

 

[ELKCHSR]

Gunner..
You can sure find a lot of crap that you can just cut and paste from every liberal or left wing source you can find...
Lets see some proof you found on your own with your own two eyes..I am betting there is a very very small percentage of individuals that come to the SI section that read even a small portion of the stuff you find...
We can all cut and paste and find things on the internet to lean in what ever side of the fence. It is another thing totally to actually get out of your house and get the proof of what ever it is that shows your point in person. That would make your case a lot more interesting and believable....But I suppose some people think that if they can bury us in usless info gleaned from some source that doesn't have to prove a thing that it should be regarded with some weight...
ALL I will say to this, is show me with proof you have found personally or it holds about as much weight as the funny pages in the Sunday paper which I do not read...

 

[1_pointer]

Elkchsr- You're kidding right?? That is something no one on this board could do, even you, and us all be informed on anything outside of you local area. Just not feasible. I'm all for people bringing ideas here from other sources. Many of these sources I don't check or haven't found them. This way I can get a wider view of what's going on. If we all tried to do what you asked of 'Gunner, I'd have to ask you to provide 100yrs of photos to prove to me that a forest can/does come back after logging or fire. I'm guessing you're not 100yrs old and even if you were I'd doubt you'd have had a camera 100 yrs ago. See???

 

[JoseCuervo]

1_Ptr,

And I so rarely get accused of bringing my own opinions/observations/solutions to these discussions..... Yeppers, I just cut and paste, with out understanding the issues..... Funny, how Elkchsr can't discuss the topic, so he just has to try and attack the poster... Typical....

 

[ELKCHSR]

Tyler, cutting and pasting isn't a bad thing, and looking up things isn't either....
There does have to be some things that have to be tempered with self knowlege also, just finding things and slamming others with them with no other references, especially from ones own expeiriences gets old.
Gunner may have real life expeirence with some of these issues, but never or very rarely shows it, he just goes off what is written and has no personal follow ups...
Nothing really against cut and paste, I do it also, lets just see some personal experience into the insight, not just "Stuff" found by others...
And I have never said you had no understaning of an issue, So don't put words in my mouth or on my posts that you read into what ever I put up...
That is on you, and it is for sure you put your opinions to bear, that is a given, and I didn't say you didn't do that either, So again, don't post things that arn't there. I would really just like to see some personal experience on some of the topics....

 

[JoseCuervo]

Yeah.... I rarely bring any original thought / experience / or observations to this forum....

Let's see....
Here is a picture I posted last summer of Welfare Rancher's Cattle ruining my scenery and Kayaking experience last summer...

And here is one I took of Clear Cutting in the Tongass last July, and the sediment in the lake on the left...

And here is one of Motorized Traffic in the Frank Church Wilderness, I took it last August...

And here is one of damage caused by Fat-Assed ATV riders... I think the pic was from last November...

And here is a picture of Hells Canyon dam, that I took last June, that stops ALL Salmon from the Payette, Boise, Owyhee, Jarbridge, Weiser, Malheur rivers....

Hmmmm... yepppers, I have never seen any of the "truth with my own two eyes..."
You know, maybe if you spent last time trying to post complete BS and nonsense, you might actually learn something. There is a reason why we have two eyes, and only one keyboard....

 

[nmtaxi]

And what does this have to do with Dubya? I'm sure he's too busy to be putting together pamphlets for the forest service.

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL Gunner....I don't think I have seen any of these particular pics, I will apologize for that part, I wasn't on as much as I would have liked for the last year...
It is great that you are focused on certain areas of the total that you have obviously been in. Is the whole Western region of the U.S. messed up like this, or are these actually exceptions to the rule, instead of the rule? This isn't meant to be derogatory, but I have posted quite a few pics also that show pretty much untouched areas with out the amount of damage that you show. I get to see a pretty good chunk of the West as it goes per year and personally I find the areas being damaged by others are getting to be less than they were say back in the 80's and which really isn't that long ago...(well maybe for some of the kids on the board...LOL)

Pic 1:
The cow's will be in most of the places in the back country and because it hurts some peoples eyes, so doe's peoples pick ups that are parked by some of these same type of boaters I see parked along the roads along some of these scenic byway's that I have traveled in the past along with the incessant amount of garbage that I see tossed out of their rigs either just before they go on their nature trip, or after they leave... This is one of those things that any one can witness most any time during rafting season along most any of the wild rivers of the west....

Pic 2: Some times sediment is a very bad thing, maybe it is in this area, there are set back rules for loggers to adhere by and from my experience, it is very well adhered to. Maybe there was another reason why this particular lake was silted up more than lets say...All the rest in the background. What most people don't really like to see about this type of pic is the extent of the logging being done, one thing I can and will say is that "Every Single person" that hates the look of what this type of logging causes for the eye appeal, they also are the very same people that will use the products either directly or indirectly from these very same places. I don't condone this style of logging, but if this is the peoples ground, it is not the logging company that dictates how this was done, it is the Gov. employees, those same individuals that have had tons of school to be able to get the jobs they have in the first place on the specific management of the forests. I know you said nothing about this specifically, but a picture say's a thousand words now doesn't it...

Pic 3: I sure hope you turned this individual in...I was just in a Regional conference where it actually states that some people under some situations are allowed to have motorized or mechanical tools in Wilderness Areas and it depends on which region it is in on who is the one that gives the go ahead...(Just some FYI)

Pic 4:
Was this in a legal area, or were they not in compliance with the local regs in this area. If they were breaking the law and you were there, I would surly hope you turned them in as I would have.

Pic 5:
I could be absolutely wrong on this one, since it is only what I have heard, or deals with the Dams I have visited. Don't they have fish ladders, or is it that the dam should just be breached and wash the world clean of this known sin of mankind? Just a question!

As for the two eyes and one keyboard thing along with the nonsence comment, I would really believe you are just as guilty if not more so than I for this transgression. Especially when you jump into one of your tirades against some one that doesn't have the same agenda or beliefs that you posses.