Burn boss indicted

[rogerthat]

Burn boss indicted by grand jury - Wildfire Today

The Blue Mountain Eagle in John Day, Oregon reports that Grant County Sheriff Todd McKinley, arrested Ricky Snodgrass, a USFS employee and prescribed fire burn boss, on October 19, 2022, for reckless burning -- while the fire he was supervising was still burning. It is the first time a Forest...

wildfiretoday.com

I bet there are some fire fighters lurking on here. Thoughts?

I can’t help but think how things have changed from 35-40 years ago in society. I will always remember the day I learned to drive. I was 8 in 1988. Our family has a railroad tracks that runs the length of the ranch. That year was a dry bugger and a train car lost a bearing I assume. Started a fire 30 to 40 miles long. No one got indicted. Sometimes crap just happens.

 

[Oak]

There was a long thread about this back in 2022, FYI.

Prescribed Burn Arrest

https://wildfiretoday.com/2022/10/26/forest-service-employees-arrest-after-fire-crosses-onto-private-land-sparks-larger-debate/ On one side we have the Mega Fires () and on the other we have "F the feds"

www.hunttalk.com

 

[rogerthat]

There was a long thread about this back in 2022, FYI.

Prescribed Burn Arrest

https://wildfiretoday.com/2022/10/26/forest-service-employees-arrest-after-fire-crosses-onto-private-land-sparks-larger-debate/ On one side we have the Mega Fires () and on the other we have "F the feds"

www.hunttalk.com

Sorry I guess I could have added to that thread about the arrest. The boss was indicted by jury now.

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

Sound like a real flurry of snowflakes. Sheriff, county attorney, and landowner.

 

[David658]

Family member is a crew manager (manages several fire crews). To hear him describe the way burns are scheduled, crewed, and managed from way up high on the ladder, it's a wonder we haven't burnt down all the woods.

David
NM

 

[howl]

I don't understand what happened with the general public that they so often indict on cases which are a waste of courts' time and budget. Ignore the law and do what's right.

 

[Undomesticated]

I worked around John Day a lot during my fire career. If I had to guess beforehand one spot where this situation would arise, it would be John Day.

My take: Prescribed fire is inherently risky. As the adage go, "If you are going to make an omelette, you are going to need to break a few eggs." In my opinion, the risk is not only worth the reward, it is absolutely necessary for hazard mitigation (putting aside the obvious and massive improvements in habitat improvement for wildlife and range improvement for cattle grazers). The Sheriff's response was a political statement pandering to local John Day politics.

We need to protect fire managers or else no one will accept the risk of conducting prescribed burns and managed fires. We are already so far behind the 8-ball on our fire management, any more setbacks are going to have severe implications for communities, watersheds, and habitat. I won't get into the weeds on the process behind conducting a prescribed burn too much, but as a general overview it is a restrictive and burdensome process that is heavily tilted towards risk-aversion rather than results. We already have one hand tied behind our backs. Any one of many parameters can take you "out of prescription" which means no burning.

 

[Undomesticated]

Family member is a crew manager (manages several fire crews). To hear him describe the way burns are scheduled, crewed, and managed from way up high on the ladder, it's a wonder we haven't burnt down all the woods.

David
NM

Hmmm. How so?

 

[thusby]

Not sure on the number of grand jurors but at a minimum you have 16 ding dongs in your county that agreed with a rogue DA.
I’d plead guilty, pay the fine and pack my bags for a new state.

 

[sapperJ24]

Not sure on the number of grand jurors but at a minimum you have 16 ding dongs in your county that agreed with a rogue DA.
I’d plead guilty, pay the fine and pack my bags for a new state.

No chance I'm pleading guilty.
Federal official acting in official capacity within scope of the position. The burn boss should be entitled to immunity from state or local prosecution under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. His lawyer should have the case moved to federal court where it should be dismissed.

 

[sapperJ24]

Update for those following along: on March 15, Snodgrass's (the burn boss) attorneys filed a motion to to move the case to federal district court. They argued, (quoting a Washington Post opinion article), "that “because Mr. Snodgrass was acting in his official capacity as a federal official … he is immune from prosecution based on the Supremacy Clause” and is entitled to have his case heard in federal court."

Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...fe-firefighter-charged-oregon-malheur-forest/
Motion: https://www.washingtonpost.com/docu...77e-3587652966f7.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_15

 

[TLowell02]

Let's hope the trial is moved and summarily dismissed.

 

[rogerthat]

Than they should send the sheriff the bill for wasting everyone’s time. Dipchit

 

[geetar]

Family member is a crew manager (manages several fire crews). To hear him describe the way burns are scheduled, crewed, and managed from way up high on the ladder, it's a wonder we haven't burnt down all the woods.

David
NM

This hasn't been my experience. In most of if not all the burns I have worked the guy who wrote the burn plan is also on scene monitoring the process in person.

 

[Valley1320]

Than they should send the sheriff the bill for wasting everyone’s time. Dipchit

Exactly! Sherrif thinks he's someone special

 

[J_Woulfe]

This hasn't been my experience. In most of if not all the burns I have worked the guy who wrote the burn plan is also on scene monitoring the process in person.

I just got done burning 3 seperate burns and the gentleman who wrote the burn plan was not on site for 30+ days of burning

 

[jdf]

I have Burn Bossed hundreds of prescribed burns. Article said RH was at 16% in morning from weather station.
I can not believe a Burn plan would be written with an RH low enough that it was in prescription of Burn plan at that. Hopefully it was though so he is still covered by operating in the parameters of burn plan.
When you even hit 20% RH things really take off.

 

[geetar]

I just got done burning 3 seperate burns and the gentleman who wrote the burn plan was not on site for 30+ days of burning

Wow! I could see how that would be a major disconnect from the top down. Most of the guys I work with view it as " This is the plan but we are gonna monitor it from start to finish and adjust the plan according to weather and fire behavior if necessary. "

 

[sapperJ24]

I have Burn Bossed hundreds of prescribed burns. Article said RH was at 16% in morning from weather station.
I can not believe a Burn plan would be written with an RH low enough that it was in prescription of Burn plan at that. Hopefully it was though so he is still covered by operating in the parameters of burn plan.
When you even hit 20% RH things really take off.

Wow! I could see how that would be a major disconnect from the top down. Most of the guys I work with view it as " This is the plan but we are gonna monitor it from start to finish and adjust the plan according to weather and fire behavior if necessary. "

Just want to add a few comments from my prescribed fire experience. Most, if not nearly all, of the Rx fires that I've participated in (either actually burning or looking at the plan) are written with an RH of 15% on the low end of the prescription. Most of the plans are written with a range of appropriate conditions. As you know, you also must be within your 'contain' parameters, so it's not like you can just rip it at 16%, 85 degrees, 8mph wind, and 10 hr fuel moistures at 9% just because all of these individual numbers are within the acceptable prescription range. (Fuel models in my area are commonly some mix of TU1, TU5, TL3, SB2).

I would be interested in knowing how the unit and the weather station locations compare, is the unit in the valley subject to inversions and better RH recovery while the station is higher up and exposed? Or maybe the locations are comparable, and in that case, what were the weather observations prior to the test fire and then during the burn? (I'd like to know the unit weather obs regardless to satisfy my curiosity and, of course, what was the spot weather forecast for the day).

I would also say that for the majority of the burns that I've been a part of, the writer and technical reviewer are not present for the burn. Some of this is due to the overwhelming backlog of planned burns or the lack of resources or acceptable burn windows while the writer is in that position. Often a fuels manager will plan, consult, and write maybe 10 or so burn plans in a year while only two or three are implemented. Stations with long-term staffing continuity will likely have more burns administered by the person who wrote the plan.

The burn boss is ultimately responsible for understanding and implementing the burn plan, adhering to the prescription, and meeting the desired outcome.