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  1. #51
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    I think the players changed the narrative. Original protester was legit. Didn't agree with him, but he made an honest protest. The idiots that followed did not know what they were doing. They were challenged by our President and made the protest about him. In the process, the players delegitimized the original protest. Made the whole protest asinine!

    Do not like Kaepernick. But, he made an honest, but still wrong protest.

    The NFL players are idiots for protesting. They are attacking their income base.

    Fan for 50 years and I am deeply offended!

  2. #52
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    SFC and bobbydean,

    I agree for the most part with both of you. Unfortunately, our Commander in Chief appears to lack the leadership skills to maturely challenge the NFL players to take a different approach, and to engage them in order to address the societal changes the wish to happen.
    Fear the beard....

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    I'll preface my comments by saying I don't regularly watch football nor will I in the future. Just not interested. But some people seem to confuse our first amendment freedom of speech that is constitutionally guaranteed to be free from interference or consequence from the government to mean that they have the right to say anything at any time without negative consequences.

    Many of our places of employment have policies against certain practices or speech that is harmful to the business because it is offensive to customers. Employees who hurt the company's profits by their actions or speech can expect to be terminated at the employer's discretion. That doesn't mean that the customer's first amendment freedoms are infringed upon.

    NFL players or any other professional athletes are employees of the company that pays them to play on their team. Their continued employment is contingent upon fulfilling the terms of their contract. If those terms include policies of what is acceptable behavior then they can expect consequences for violation of those standards. What each player advocates for in his personal time, off the field, outside of the constraints of his contract is not the government nor the owner's business. What he does and says on company time while being payed to represent his team is certainly subject to the owner's censorship.

    If this were any other business than professional sports we would think it ridiculous that employees would be allowed to hurt their company to advocate for social change outside of the company at the company's expense.

    Would any of us tolerate going to a restaurant and having to listen to the waiter articulate his political views on a particular topic before being allowed to order?

    Should I as an unapologetic, pro-life, Christian be allowed to use employer paid working time to argue on the internet with pro-abortion individuals or to proselytize my fellow employees?

    As a business owner, should I be expected to allow my employee to drive my customers away by presenting views they find offensive while we are working?


    None of us should support or want there to be laws passed that would restrict the player's ability to speak. Neither should we want laws passed that would restrict an employer from offering or withholding employment from an individual who will not abide by the "acceptable behavior" policies the company enacts.


    If you are offended by players kneeling, the owners are the ones whom you need to contact. The NFL and all other professional sports is a business. If a business does not make a profit it will either evolve to become profitable or cease to exist.


    Trying to enact legislation and governmental suppression or support of speech or beliefs is a two edged sword. The law I support that suppresses speech I find abhorrent, may very well be used against me by others in the future.

    Yet, it is very self-indulgent and childish to expect an employer to bear the financial consequences of what his employees advocate for on company time.
    Last edited by Gerald Martin; 10-14-2017 at 11:30 AM.

  4. #54
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    Gerald,

    You are correct. If I had on company time said the Hiliary is a travesty, I would be fired. I believe NFL players have the same obligation! They work for their employer. Do it on private time, First amendment applies. Do it on company time in uniform with the National Anthem playing, you are a disgrace and should fired!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbydean View Post
    I think the players changed the narrative. Original protester was legit. Didn't agree with him, but he made an honest protest. The idiots that followed did not know what they were doing. They were challenged by our President and made the protest about him. In the process, the players delegitimized the original protest. Made the whole protest asinine!

    Do not like Kaepernick. But, he made an honest, but still wrong protest.

    The NFL players are idiots for protesting. They are attacking their income base.

    Fan for 50 years and I am deeply offended!
    You're joking right? Kaep made his protest based on perceptions, not facts. He compounded his ignorance by wearing a Che' Guevara T-shirt and Pig socks. His girlfriend is a huge source of his woes.

    His upbringing adds even more irony to this saga...
    God's trying to bless America, there's just too many people getting in the way.

  6. #56
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    I think Kaep believed what he was doing. I think he was wrong, I do not think he was very smart. I think he totally disenfranchised himself from his adoptive family.

    He was wrong, but he made his choice and lost millions! Was he honest. Yes! I think and he knows!

  7. #57
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    From a outsiders perspective I found Andy Stumpf's (ex Navy Seal) opinions enlightening, see Cleared Hot Podcast episode 15 if you are interested

    https://clearedhotpodcast.com/episodes/

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Martin View Post
    Many of our places of employment have policies against certain practices or speech that is harmful to the business because it is offensive to customers. Employees who hurt the company's profits by their actions or speech can expect to be terminated at the employer's discretion. That doesn't mean that the customer's first amendment freedoms are infringed upon.

    NFL players or any other professional athletes are employees of the company that pays them to play on their team. Their continued employment is contingent upon fulfilling the terms of their contract. If those terms include policies of what is acceptable behavior then they can expect consequences for violation of those standards. What each player advocates for in his personal time, off the field, outside of the constraints of his contract is not the government nor the owner's business. What he does and says on company time while being payed to represent his team is certainly subject to the owner's censorship.
    Only if there is a policy in place to begin with.

    Even though you apparently feel that employees have no rights under the law, they do. When the policies, MOU's, and contract language are negotiated and terms like "should", or "may" are used...there is no expectation of "shall" or "must", from either the employee or employer. If the employer wants policy to reflect must and shall, they have to negotiate that in policy from the start. What they cant do is just arbitrarily start implementing policy standards that don't exist because their bottom line is being impacted. In particular, when that arbitrary policy has not been negotiated by the Union/Management, and when that un-negotiated policy takes punitive action against an employee. Even more problematic when your current policy doesn't say you MUST stand for the anthem.

    That's the case here, and why the owners will get their butts handed to them if they try to fire, suspend, or even write up a player for taking a knee during the anthem. Its why the NLRA and NLRB exist, to make sure that contract language is honored. Its also a classic case of why labor laws and labor unions are still needed in 2017.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    Its also a classic case of why labor laws and labor unions are still needed in 2017.
    Which, if anyone has been following the NAFTA negotiations(which not a lot are because it gets no coverage in the states). That's what Canada is pushing for. Unions are what saves and grows the middle class. This free speech issue has now gone global with teams in Canada, UK and Europe taking a knee in silent protest

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    Its also a classic case of why labor laws and labor unions are still needed in 2017.
    Thanks for the laugh. Yes, those poor defenseless football players making millions need help defending their 1st amendment rights....

    What their representation should be doing is protecting them from long term injuries. Instead they sign contracts with gear companies that pay the most out versus protect them the most from injury.
    God's trying to bless America, there's just too many people getting in the way.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Thanks for the laugh. Yes, those poor defenseless football players making millions need help defending their 1st amendment rights....

    What their representation should be doing is protecting them from long term injuries. Instead they sign contracts with gear companies that pay the most out versus protect them the most from injury.
    No, they need help ensuring that Management and the Union live up to THEIR contract, policies, and MOU's...nothing to do with first amendment rights. The owners act as though they are incapable of coming to the table and negotiating this issue, just like a lot of other issues. They can, and should...or they can implement policy that isn't negotiated and roll the dice with the NLRB.

    I've been involved with a lot of each...frankly, I'd rather negotiate like an adult. But, if Management wants to be stubborn, I can play that game too. The trouble is I don't play for second place and when things go the formal route with NLRB, there is a winner, and a loser.

    However, what I WILL NOT negotiate is something that is already part of a formal contract...its already been negotiated, its already policy, and it needs to be followed. If its not followed, your ass is going to be in a sling...whether Management or the Union fails to honor it. I have no problem re-opening contracts and re-negotiating a contract, but needs to be done by the correct process.

    As to the injuries and safety on the field, the Players Union is also responsible for the awareness, protocol, and policies regarding those issues too. Its a brutal, full contact sport, injuries are part of the job. One way to mitigate that is for the players to maximize profit for the assumed risk of serious and career ending injury. If that means signing contracts with gear companies to maximize employee profit to help off-set the injury risk, good for them.

    Thank you for the laugh...hilarious.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  12. #62
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    Buzz.

    Ultimate respect. You are reading this long. Yes, there is a contract. No, you cannot say anything that makes your employer look bad. The employee (footballer is on company time) cannot say anything that denigrates the employer (NFL ownership). Private time is OK.

    Fire their ass!

    I know you will not agree!

  13. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Hulburt View Post
    If every NFL player or employee quit and there was never another NFL game the world would be a better place. A whole bunch of people might get up and go outside and live their own life instead of pretending to be part of some giant money sucking franchise. So yeah, I'm not impressed with professional sports in 2017. Good riddance.
    Spot on. My wish is that they all quit. Much better world! Same for hollywood

  14. #64
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    The protest is illegitimate, and it's based off of lies and liberal b.s. Propaganda if you will (fitting for a commie lover like Keapernick).

    But that's fine, let these fellas do what they want, in about 30yrs they'll all be playing with crayons and have a nice case of cte (ie brain damage).

    It's hard to hate the stupid for doing stupid things...they know not what they do...

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbydean View Post
    Buzz.

    Ultimate respect. You are reading this long. Yes, there is a contract. No, you cannot say anything that makes your employer look bad. The employee (footballer is on company time) cannot say anything that denigrates the employer (NFL ownership). Private time is OK.

    Fire their ass!

    I know you will not agree!
    Ultimate respect back, but no, I'm not reading anything wrong.

    Its about policy, or lack-there-of in this case to justify a termination of an employee. In fact, the policy in place, from what I've read, says that players "should" stand for the anthem. No requirement to do so, no shall or must. SHOULD.

    Put yourself at arbitration on this issue...as an arbitrator. What do you suppose will be one of the first questions they ask if someone is there claiming they were unjustly fired? Yep, what is the company policy on the XYZ thing that you fired for.

    We are a country of laws, including labor laws.

    Now, if the negotiated policy says that players MUST stand for the anthem and take a knee in defiance of the policy...I'm right there with you. Fire them if that's the appropriate action to take when they mess up, you'll get no push-back from me.

    Its really not about whether I agree with you or not, its about what the contract and policy say and what will happen at a NLRB hearing as it pertains to the NLRA. My guess is that any owner that fires a player under the existing contract is going to pay, and pay big.

    But, arbitration is risky...you're at the mercy of the arbitrators and labor law.

    Which leads to why I avoid arbitration and try to sit down and work through these kinds of problems through negotiations. In this case, like most I've worked on, its not easy but achievable to work out a solution, and maybe even come up with a resolution...if the parties care to.

    YMMV.
    Last edited by BuzzH; 10-15-2017 at 02:23 PM.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  16. #66

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    Kaepernic is filing a grievance. Alleges collusion. mtmuley

  17. #67

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    I thought this was a hunting forum?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by yacantski View Post
    I thought this was a hunting forum?
    so we cant talk about anything but hunting?

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by yacantski View Post
    I thought this was a hunting forum?
    It is a hunting forum. The best one out there. Here at the Fireside, we talk about a lot of things. Not just hunting. mtmuley

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmuley View Post
    Kaepernic is filing a grievance. Alleges collusion. mtmuley
    Yep, Myself, i know little of the fine print, you guys are doing a excellent job and really making this a good read, Thanks!. I hope Kap ends up having to pay all the Fee's.

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...ners-collusion

    If you're interested, I made a hit at the line of scrimmage during a Monday full go drill under the filming tower during the middle of my Junior year in College. Lower back, left side, i couldn't hardly get out of bed the next day and though i couldn't run, i said i'd play and did start against U of Indiana later that week. I was taken out almost immediately as it was obvious...and that i had refused from our Head Coach to "go with the trainer" and get, when he told me would be a "pain shot". Two weeks after the injury i felt back up to 100% but don't you know that through many's eyes including mine, i was no doubt the best of either side Linebacker on that Team and i still played almost the whole of each remaining game,yet they didn't "start" me the rest of the year. I was being punished for refusing the pain shot to my back when i didn't have a clue what was wrong with my back other than knowing that i was injured. Right now, sitting here at my office desk, i'm suffering constant pain that never goes away and it's centered exactly where it hurt after i stopped that fullback at the line of scrimmage that afternoon so long ago. Damage to my brain? I'd bet on it, i would. After that Junior Season, i went back home and went to work, never played another down though i was promised the Moon if i'd stay.. I was So,.. disenchanted with the game, felt let down that they didn't care or give a crap about me. They wanted a soldier ready to run up that hill. It's taken me a whole lifetime to finally say this, "Screw Football, wish i'd never played the game".
    Last edited by uncle sage; 10-15-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncle sage View Post
    Yep, Myself, i know little of the fine print, you guys are doing a excellent job and really making this a good read, Thanks!. I hope Kap ends up having to pay all the Fee's.

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...ners-collusion

    If you're interested, I made a hit at the line of scrimmage during a Monday full go drill under the filming tower during the middle of my Junior year in College. Lower back, left side, i couldn't hardly get out of bed the next day and though i couldn't run, i said i'd play and did start against U of Indiana later that week. I was taken out almost immediately as it was obvious...and that i had refused from our Head Coach to "go with the trainer" and get, when he told me would be a "pain shot". Two weeks after the injury i felt back up to 100% but don't you know that through many's eyes including mine, i was no doubt the best of either side Linebacker on that Team and i still played almost the whole of each remaining game,yet they didn't "start" me the rest of the year. I was being punished for refusing the pain shot to my back when i didn't have a clue what was wrong with my back other than knowing that i was injured. Right now, sitting here at my office desk, i'm suffering constant pain that never goes away and it's centered exactly where it hurt after i stopped that fullback at the line of scrimmage that afternoon so long ago. Damage to my brain? I'd bet on it, i would. After that Junior Season, i went back home and went to work, never played another down though i was promised the Moon if i'd stay.. I was So,.. disenchanted with the game, felt let down that they didn't care or give a crap about me. They wanted a soldier ready to run up that hill. It's taken me a whole lifetime to finally say this, "Screw Football, wish i'd never played the game".
    Uncle sage slightly off topic, can you explain to me, in your onion, how taking a pain shot is not partaking in the use of performance enhancing drugs?

    They are used widely in the National Rugby League down under as well. In my humble opinion with a bad injury your body is telling you, with the pain, that it is at its limits (sure you maybe able to mentally block it out and continue but that level is different for everyone). How is that different from a steroid etc that increases your strength letting you unnaturally improve beyond your original natural limit?

  22. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieHunter View Post
    Uncle sage slightly off topic, can you explain to me, in your onion, how taking a pain shot is not partaking in the use of performance enhancing drugs?

    They are used widely in the National Rugby League down under as well. In my humble opinion with a bad injury your body is telling you, with the pain, that it is at its limits (sure you maybe able to mentally block it out and continue but that level is different for everyone). How is that different from a steroid etc that increases your strength letting you unnaturally improve beyond your original natural limit?

    I believe that Big time College Football even back in the 70's was all about the Money, Huge money for the Colleges. Not to the players so much though i did later find that it could be had. I played for the "full Ride" and though not much of a student, had to study my tail off just to barely get passing grades, i learned plenty in my 3 years. Training Tables, like a team only smorgasbord after or before practice, back then were highly suspect to include steroids though i never knew for sure one way or the other. Far as the way i felt about PEDrugs, i didn't need or want them in any way. Drug free and corn fed from good genetics off the Ranch, i later in High School, 9-0 undefeated Team, i took in 4 seasons of a Summer job being 1 man on a 2 man crew, loading 424 alfalfa bales a rig, getting them tied down, off and on to the next one, for a trucker guy hauling for the local Hay Growers Assoc. That was Before squeeze loaders, we used long shank D handled hay hooks. With the Hot Delta Heat and 12-13 hr days hand loading those trucks, i was the guy stacking, I was already in what i had felt, absolute Top condition. Playing at 6-2, i ran my 4.7 40's, and weighted about 230 pounds all natural. I showed up to play in far better condition than the city guys with their gym built muscles. I agree with you though about ones body talking, and that's how i felt about it at the time when i either went with that trainer or not. I was NOT willing to take that pain shot just before Kickoff that game, we ended up Winning it 42-0, without knowing just what was so wrong. I was punished for my caution and discretion and back then, i had a really hard time processing those facts.

    Yes, it is off topic and sorry to finally now air my bitch here about the game but with what is current and what was my experience in the game, the Coaches don't care about "the person" like they make on when recruiting, drafting, and signing you. They care about filling a hole with a body and if that body is hurt and can't play, it's on to the next body, and the next...all that talk of what they are going to do for you goes out the window quick and the next guy gets the big smiles and slaps on the back. It's about the Winning, the Team record, the Money.
    Last edited by uncle sage; 10-16-2017 at 09:12 AM.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWP58 View Post
    But that's fine, let these fellas do what they want, in about 30yrs they'll all be playing with crayons and have a nice case of cte (ie brain damage).

    It's hard to hate the stupid for doing stupid things...they know not what they do...
    Wow, just wow.
    “LET ME TELL YOU WHY PEOPLE LIVE IN IDAHO…THEY LIVE IN IDAHO BECAUSE THEY LOVE THEIR PUBLIC LANDS. THEY LIKE ACCESS TO THEM FOR RECREATION, FOR HUNTING AND FISHING, OR ALL THE ACTIVITIES THEY DO ON PUBLIC LANDS.”
    -U.S. Representative Mike Simpson

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