High Altitude Mask For Training?

Gr8bawana said:

Planes are pressurized so there is no lack of air. Do you really think all those people would be able to sit there if they were really breathing what little air is present at 30,000 feet?
There would be no benefit to working out in the bathroom even if it is at 30,000 ft. elevation. They would probably break the door down much sooner than those 20 minutes.

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Most are pressurized to 10K feet as I recall. Not sea level, but I think the post was in jest...

Do more than you think necessary and you still will wish you had done more. Same goes for planning for retirement, shooting, scouting, etc.

JLS said:

The reality is the money is better spent on new running shoes.

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While the mask is pretty much a waste of money this isn't actually true either.
Running isn't the best training modality for hiking with a pack around the mountains and especially not for carrying a heavy pack out of the mountains when you're already fatigued.
Not to mention, most people just shouldn't run at all.



"Everything has a cost. Not everything has a benefit. If it doesn't have a benefit, it only has a cost." - Coach Charles Staley
Every little bit doesn't really count
https://evidencebasedfitness.net/every-little-bit-doesnt-really-count-the-much-longer-version/

Update from the OP...me, since I started this thread over two years ago, which was posted it in May '16. I started running around that time, and by that Sept, I was amazing how much better I felt when I went back, even my hunting partner commented about it. Two years later, I run 7-10 miles daily before work, and finally ran my first marathon a few months ago. My weight is in the "ideal" range (155lbs at 5'7"). The way I look at it, my heart is much much more efficient, and my muscles aren't struggling for the oxygen it once was. With that, I'm hoping that this Sept will be better than in '16 (didn't go in '17). I'm also training for another marathon in January.
No doubt that I will be winded the first couple days of the hunt, but going off of the results from the last hunt, I'll bounce back in no time. Never did bother with the mask!

genesis273 said:

Update from the OP...me, since I started this thread over two years ago, which was posted it in May '16. I started running around that time, and by that Sept, I was amazing how much better I felt when I went back, even my hunting partner commented about it. Two years later, I run 7-10 miles daily before work, and finally ran my first marathon a few months ago. My weight is in the "ideal" range (155lbs at 5'7"). The way I look at it, my heart is much much more efficient, and my muscles aren't struggling for the oxygen it once was. With that, I'm hoping that this Sept will be better than in '16 (didn't go in '17). I'm also training for another marathon in January.
No doubt that I will be winded the first couple days of the hunt, but going off of the results from the last hunt, I'll bounce back in no time. Never did bother with the mask!

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Great to hear! Nice to hear success stories like this.

One of the best and most intelligent responses I have ever seen on a forum! Kudos!! My research on the subject has yielded nearly identical information. Happy hunting!

Coach Chris said:

While the mask is pretty much a waste of money this isn't actually true either.
Running isn't the best training modality for hiking with a pack around the mountains and especially not for carrying a heavy pack out of the mountains when you're already fatigued.
Not to mention, most people just shouldn't run at all.



"Everything has a cost. Not everything has a benefit. If it doesn't have a benefit, it only has a cost." - Coach Charles Staley
Every little bit doesn't really count
https://evidencebasedfitness.net/every-little-bit-doesnt-really-count-the-much-longer-version/

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I liked that article. It made a lot of sense with me. I'd be interested in your opinion of proper training for a flatlander heading to the mountains. I'm not trying to bait you into a trap, I'm seriously interested. Thanks in advance.

I’m in the same boat and live at sea level. I am pretty fit but have recently been training hill climbs with a pack just breathing through my nose! Not sure it will help, as I think general fitness is the key and taking a couple of days getting up high is important.

1_pointer said:

I liked that article. It made a lot of sense with me. I'd be interested in your opinion of proper training for a flatlander heading to the mountains. I'm not trying to bait you into a trap, I'm seriously interested. Thanks in advance.

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I will answer this as thoroughly as possible. I'm not interested in debating training and sports science on the internet. Inevitably there's always someone who's personal experience supersedes my education.

I've been training my cousin, who lives on the southeast coast of Florida, for the last year, for an elk hunt here in October.

There are some basic principles of physiology that need to be taken into account when training anyone for any event.

The body works on a series of continuums. Hunting is an endurance sport.
The Absolute Strength <-> Absolute Endurance Continuum is in effect when you're hunting
Absolute Strength<->Endurance/Strength<->Strength/Endurance<->Absolute Endurance

Everything that we do is based on a percentage of our absolute strength. The stronger you are the lower the percentage of absolute strength is necessary to achieve a particular task. FWIW - Absolute strength is the closet thing to what people call "general fitness". The body doesn't generally adapt to stress..
The first training variable that needs to be addressed is base strength. You need to be strong. Time under weights with the focus on lifting progressively heavier loads.
Squats, deadlifts, heavy presses, heavy kettlebell swings, pullups, pushups, loaded carries, etc...
Basic strength programs like Wendler's 5/3/1 and its' variations are perfect for this.
In this training you can also include endurance/strength training, i.e. Prowler pushes, tire drags, sled drags, etc..... for distance/time and load.

Next is the SAID principle - Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand - Hunting is essentially hiking with a fairly heavy pack. That's the next training variable that needs to be taken into account, base and specific endurance. Endurance on a physiological level is increasing the capillary density in your musculature. You need to build up your milage. Which has very little to do with lungs or as some like to call it "wind". You have to get out and hike/walk. If you plan on hiking/hunting for 10mi a day you need to increase your capillary density to sustain for more than 10mi. You need to put in overdistance training. You need to be putting in 12-15 or more miles in your training.
When I program for my ultra-endurance athletes I program for time out instead of milage. If they're going to run a century and it's going to take 22hrs. They/we plan on training up to 24-26hrs broken up over 3 days. So they would run 5-6hrs on day 1, 10-11hrs on day 2 and 7-8hrs on day 3. That's your base endurance (absolute endurance)
Your specific endurance (strength/endurance) is rucking. Training has to be as specific as possible. To be efficient at carrying a heavy pack you have to carry a heavy pack. Carrying increasingly heavier loads for a fixed distance has benefits to carrying a moderate to heavy load all day.

The only variable you can't train for is altitude gain. The only way to adapt to altitude is spending time at altitude. It's a chemical process.

Coach Chris said:

I will answer this as thoroughly as possible. I'm not interested in debating training and sports science on the internet. Inevitably there's always someone who's personal experience supersedes my education.

I've been training my cousin, who lives on the southeast coast of Florida, for the last year, for an elk hunt here in October.

There are some basic principles of physiology that need to be taken into account when training anyone for any event.

The body works on a series of continuums. Hunting is an endurance sport.
The Absolute Strength <-> Absolute Endurance Continuum is in effect when you're hunting
Absolute Strength<->Endurance/Strength<->Strength/Endurance<->Absolute Endurance
Everything that we do is based on a percentage of our absolute strength. The stronger you are the lower the percentage of absolute strength is necessary to achieve a particular task.
The first training variable that needs to be addressed is base strength. You need to be strong. Time under weights with the focus on lifting progressively heavier loads.
Squats, deadlifts, heavy presses, heavy kettlebell swings, pullups, pushups, loaded carries, etc...
Basic strength programs like Wendler's 5/3/1 and its' variations are perfect for this.
In this training you can also include endurance/strength training, i.e. Prowler pushes, tire drags, sled drags, etc..... for distance/time and load.

Next is the SAID principle - Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand - Hunting is essentially hiking with a fairly heavy pack. That's the next training variable that needs to be taken into account, base and specific endurance. Endurance on a physiological level is increasing the capillary density in your musculature. You need to build up your milage. Which has very little to do with lungs or as some like to call it "wind". You have to get out and hike/walk. If you plan on hiking/hunting for 10mi a day you need to increase your capillary density to sustain for more than 10mi. You need to put in overdistance training. You need to be putting in 12-15 or more miles in your training.
When I program for my ultra-endurance athletes I program for time out instead of milage. If they're going to run a century and it's going to take 22hrs. They we plan on training up to 24-26hrs broken up over 3 days. So they would run 5-6hrs on day 1, 10-11hrs on day 2 and 7-8hrs on day 3. That's your base endurance (absolute endurance)
Your specific endurance (strength/endurance) is rucking. Training has to be as specific as possible. To be efficient at carrying a heavy pack you have to carry a heavy pack. Carrying increasingly heavier loads for a fixed distance has benefits to carrying a moderate to heavy load all day.

The only variable you can't train for is altitude gain. The only way to adapt to altitude is spending time at altitude. It's a chemical process.

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If I'm ever in Jackson Hole, I'm going to buy you a beer, or protein shake, and pick your brain. Great post

Bigjay73 said:

If I'm ever in Jackson Hole, I'm going to buy you a beer, or protein shake, and pick your brain. Great post

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We'll sit down over coffee and discuss training.
Cheers!

Haha. Coffee it is. Not a fan of protein shakes anyways lol

Start running. Then hill sprints. Cardio

Coach Chris-

Thanks for that explanation/insight.

Interesting thread. Ive often wondered if they would be useful. Thanks for all the information everyone.

1_pointer said:

Coach Chris-

Thanks for that explanation/insight.

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You're welcome!

Coach Chris said:

While the mask is pretty much a waste of money this isn't actually true either.
Running isn't the best training modality for hiking with a pack around the mountains and especially not for carrying a heavy pack out of the mountains when you're already fatigued.
Not to mention, most people just shouldn't run at all.



"Everything has a cost. Not everything has a benefit. If it doesn't have a benefit, it only has a cost." - Coach Charles Staley
Every little bit doesn't really count
https://evidencebasedfitness.net/every-little-bit-doesnt-really-count-the-much-longer-version/

Click to expand...

I certainly agree with you not everyone should run, and I also agree running isn't necessarily the best training approach for carrying a pack around the mountains. However, I stand by my statement that in relative terms of useful benefit, new running shoes are better than an altitude mask.

I appreciate your insight into fitness. I'm a simple layman, but my approach to fitness has evolved a great deal over the years, and actually mimics a fair bit of the plan you outlined. I trained for and completed a 50 mile trail run several years ago, and in doing so never ran more than 50 miles a week while maintaining strength. I'm 6' tall and weighed in at 199 on race week.

JLS said:

I certainly agree with you not everyone should run, and I also agree running isn't necessarily the best training approach for carrying a pack around the mountains. However, I stand by my statement that in relative terms of useful benefit, new running shoes are better than an altitude mask.

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Based on the evidence, there's no reason to buy a training mask at all.
New running shoes are a good purchase for people who want to wear running shoes whether they want to run or not.
If someone doesn't have a need for the purchase of new running shoes doing so would be a waste of money for them.

Congratulations on your running endeavors.

Coach Chris said:

If someone doesn't have a need for the purchase of new running shoes doing so would be a waste of money for them.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that insight. Carry on.

Coach Chris said:

While the mask is pretty much a waste of money this isn't actually true either.
Running isn't the best training modality for hiking with a pack around the mountains and especially not for carrying a heavy pack out of the mountains when you're already fatigued.
Not to mention, most people just shouldn't run at all.



"Everything has a cost. Not everything has a benefit. If it doesn't have a benefit, it only has a cost." - Coach Charles Staley
Every little bit doesn't really count
https://evidencebasedfitness.net/every-little-bit-doesnt-really-count-the-much-longer-version/

Click to expand...

Obviously, the best training for carrying a heavy pack around the mountains, would be to carry a heavy pack around the mountains. What I said about my "training" by running, started out as a way to get in shape, which turned into a love of running, which had multiple benefits for me personally. Running isn't for everyone. But at 50, I feel better than when I was in my 20's, and I've lost 25+ lbs, which tells me that I have that much less weight to haul up a mountain. That equates to something beneficial when I go from 650" ASL, to 9000". I'm no "fitness coach", but it helped me tremendously during my last elk hunt, and I'm sure it will help me in a few weeks.
Just to add, I do hike some with my pack and do alot of pull-ups, sit-ups, and push-ups every morning. So running isn't the only thing I do. And I don't only do these for Sept elk hunts. My BP has dropped, I'm no longer diabetic (type 2), and I simply feel so much better. I could go on, but you get the point.

If it sounds like and looks like a stupid gimmick with no real use it probably is....