noharleyyet
Well-known member
...cypher the cost per Merriam pound.
New Mexico Privatization. Nuthin like it
- Thread starter abqbw
- Start date
Saw that. Yikes. mtmuley
The tags don't get converted back because they're private land tags, the ranches set the number of hunts/tags they want to use. Based on what he advertises, 4 hunts, he doesn't run 22 hunters each hunt(88 MB tags), on 15,000 acres I'd imagine he runs 6-8 hunters at a time, maybe less so he may be killing 40-50 bulls a season based on the hunts he advertises including archery(ES).
These are the numbers for '23
48-21524 STANLEY OCATE DAVID STANLEY BOX 8 HC 70 OCATE, NM 87734 14,795 Base RO 67 37 90
The SMZ is the Special Management Zone and it's majority private land.
I think they only have to register with the program.
Sidenote on Wheaton Ranch, no doubt David Stanley has a lot of issues but 48 is intertwined with state and private property and if you've ever hunted there and seen the trash hunters leave behind, because the state property and roads are mostly used by hunters, along with driving off road on private property, when it's wet at that, leaving gates open, etc. you'd see first hand why most private land owners are very hesitant to let just anyone on their ranch. I've hunted open gate lands in many states but never seen the disregard for private land owners that you see in New Mexico, it's just different.
I was in Northern New Mexico the last few weeks turkey hunting and then back through hunting Southern Colorado and it was as green as I've seen it in years. We saw multiple herds of elk with over 100 animals on private land. Talking with several landowners, when they consider grazing cattle they have to take into account the elk now as well, for grass and fence repair. The sad state of things is the elk population is booming but you can't even get neighbors to work together to kill cows to help manage the numbers much less bring all the interest groups together to find a solution for access. Even if a landowner allowed 15 cow hunters on his property in December once you shoot a few times they jump the fence to another landowner that won't allow anyone in because a hunter decided to empty his truck of trash there the year before. If we ever want access to private land we first have to prove we can take care of and be respectful of the public land we have access to.
seeth07
Well-known member
Better hurry, looks like he's almost sold out!
Rates & Packages - Wheaton Creek Ranch
www.wheatoncreekranch.com
I just wanted to point this out to you that you were wrong. The tags aren't selling anywhere even remotely close to 20k. Guided, fully catered and pampered resort type elk hunting experiences are available for 20k. Those hunts are using EPLUS vouchers that are more likely than not using RO EPLUS vouchers and not unit wide ones. I don't care what state you are in, 20k is about the norm these days for these types of hunts. Heck, even remote camp or even drop off and equipped camps are getting close to 10k now. These examples are going to continue to exist with or without a EPLUS - it just makes it easier for them.
brocksw
Well-known member
I wasn’t wrong, just speaking in generalization. If you think a bull elk doesn’t represent $20k to some of those landowners through this eplus system, you’re off your rocker. I would bet some of those plus tags are tied to a guided hunt and there’s no way to even buy it without paying the guide fee as well.
Hell, Ted Turner is selling some hunts for $150k a piece for a 5 day hunt.
Nice try though.
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seeth07
Well-known member
and you don't think that is happening in CO, WY, MT where available of tags exists fairly easily especially in locations where there is a lot of private land? The examples you are quick to point out aren't exactly high public land and public use areas due to the large ratio of private land.
The difference is with the unit wide tags. Look and lets provide examples there.
brocksw
Well-known member
Cool.
seeth07
Well-known member
seeth07
Well-known member
seeth07
Well-known member
Here, on this one you can hunt right next to the Wheaton ranch and flip them off while you process your elk but paid 1/3 the price!
seeth07
Well-known member
Dumb me, I didn't research long enough. Look at this gem in unit 48!
Wyoming general tag cost if drawn in the special and only buying points first five years:
5 years of building points = $52 * 5 = $260
App at 6th year = $2014.13
Total = $2274.13
Wyoming general tag cost if drawn in the special and only buying points first five years:
5 years of building points = $52 * 5 = $260
App at 6th year = $2014.13
Total = $2274.13
brocksw
Well-known member
If it’s not obvious by now, we will likely not come to an agreement on this issue. I dont believe in the privatization of a public resource to the point that it corrupts the democratic allocation of that resource. Aka, taking disproportionate amounts of public opportunity away from the public, without giving anything back to the beneficiary.
Additionally, I would guess the New Mexico constitution does not state that wildlife are managed for the benefit of the private land owner. Federal case law would agree.
You support the privatization of a public resource because you can afford to buy a chunk. Good for you. So could I. But that does not change my stance. In fact, it is unlikely that anything you say will change my mind. At least given your rhetoric on this thread.
brocksw
Well-known member
I’m sure resident New Mexicans will agree that they should pay 20x more for their elk tags.
That’s where you are mistaken. This isn’t about me. I rarely even apply to New Mexico. A handful of lesser priced landowner tags is irrelevant to the broader conversation. Resident New Mexicans are the ones getting the shaft.
Have a good one. I’ll let you continue strutting around the chess board.
seeth07
Well-known member
False.
I support whatever is best for wildlife and government programs that encourage private landowners to be good stewards of the lands they own for the benefit of wildlife. EPLUS is a program that has the potential to do this if there are some tweaks made to the current structure that is in place.
I much prefer this method over using fish and game budget and taxpayer dollars to pay private land owners for "crop damage due to elk".
brocksw
Well-known member
Nevada and Utah were able to do that without giving away 40+% of the elk tags. In fact, they did it for a fraction of that. And they got something in return for the public.
But again…the chess board is yours.
seeth07
Well-known member
In Utah (I don't honestly know much about Nevada elk hunting so I'm choosing Utah), the elk population has remained relatively constant over the last decade due to population objectives being set with the goal of maintaining current elk populations and thus, not providing more opportunity to the public elk draw. This is due generally not because of habitat limitations but because of social tolerance from other stakeholders in the state (source = https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/elk_plan.pdf).
In NM, the amount of opportunity in the public elk draw has only been steadily increasing every single year since the 2019 draw largely due to the social tolerance from the other stakeholders in the stake being changed. No elk tags have ever been taken out of the draw due to the EPLUS system.
You could have also drawn with those 5 points in the regular in wyoming but pointing out the special price gets you closer to that over priced single unit tag that pays large landowners way to much for a public resource.
Khunter
Well-known member
What?! That is absurd. Of course every EPlus tag comes out to the initial NMGFD annual allotment of total tags appropriate to maintain elk population objectives for a given GMU.
Once NMGFD determines how many tags to approve, EPLUS takes tags straight off the top and the public gets the shaft (leftover scraps in the draw) and the wealthy, generally nonresident hunters by a large margin, scoop up most of the EPLUS tags and nearly all the bull/ES tags.
How can you not clearly see EPLUS stands on the neck of the public draw hunter and only exists at the expense of the public draw hunter.
If, tomorrow, EPLUS was cancelled ALL those thousands of tags would hop right into the public draw as the only way NMGFD can offload the tags to achieve herd objectives.
Seriously, how is the public draw not affected by the massive number of tags pushed to EPLUS and away from the draw?
seeth07
Well-known member
If you go back and look at the elk tag numbers I already posted, since 2019, every year the amount goes up in the public draw. That's the only number you need to look at because it's a direct result of EPLUS. The amount of EPLUS vouchers is actually slightly decreasing each year.
