kwyeewyk
Well-known member
Add to that the shortened fire return interval that comes with invasive annuals that keeps shrubs from reestablishing post fire.
How to decimate a mule deer herd: A case study in Wyoming
- Thread starter Oak
- Start date
We also seem to think history starts when we were born, as far as landscapes. I once researched how much of Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and Colorado were aerial sprayed with herbicide to kill sagebrush that got replanted as crops or pasture. It is in the tens of millions of acres; landscapes that were previously native mule deer habitat.
Much of where you drive in central/eastern Montana and Wyoming, or southern Idaho or eastern Colorado that is now pasture or crops was once sagebrush communities. Those historic habitats benefited mule deer, pronghorn, and sage grouse.
In the Pronghorn Ecology book by Yoakum and O'Gara, they have maps of central Montana and how much was sprayed for conversion away from sage. It's a crazy amount. And, the outcome for pronghorn was what would be expected. And I suspect if measured, the same outcome was experience for mule deer and sage grouse.
It is it is unreasonable to expect today's landscapes that have been so heavily manipulated in favor of other uses over the last 80 years to be as productive for native species as they were when those landscapes were far more intact. I suspect that accounts for part of Heffelfinger's comments that current landscapes are not as productive for native species as they historically were, even though they are far more productive for non-native species.
Much of where you drive in central/eastern Montana and Wyoming, or southern Idaho or eastern Colorado that is now pasture or crops was once sagebrush communities. Those historic habitats benefited mule deer, pronghorn, and sage grouse.
In the Pronghorn Ecology book by Yoakum and O'Gara, they have maps of central Montana and how much was sprayed for conversion away from sage. It's a crazy amount. And, the outcome for pronghorn was what would be expected. And I suspect if measured, the same outcome was experience for mule deer and sage grouse.
It is it is unreasonable to expect today's landscapes that have been so heavily manipulated in favor of other uses over the last 80 years to be as productive for native species as they were when those landscapes were far more intact. I suspect that accounts for part of Heffelfinger's comments that current landscapes are not as productive for native species as they historically were, even though they are far more productive for non-native species.
mevertsen
Well-known member
I am reading this book currently. It was published in 1942. There is a section in the back about recreation, including hunting and fishing. There is a population estimate in NV of 50 to 60 thousand mule deer in the early 40's.
Grazing, from reports I have seen was much higher in the mid 20th century than current rates.
Makes me wonder what the baseline population for mule deer is, was, or should be.
Add in The human population growth, decimation of feed on winter ranges, migration corridors and all the other factors involved, and I have a hard time believing we will ever see mule deer of the 80's.
Stop killing does...
Stop building mcmansions on 10 acre ranchettes in mule deer winter range
Eliminate elk from non native ranges (More specific to NV)
Plant deer appropriate browse and protect it
Kill a few predators
Grazing, from reports I have seen was much higher in the mid 20th century than current rates.
Makes me wonder what the baseline population for mule deer is, was, or should be.
Add in The human population growth, decimation of feed on winter ranges, migration corridors and all the other factors involved, and I have a hard time believing we will ever see mule deer of the 80's.
Stop killing does...
Stop building mcmansions on 10 acre ranchettes in mule deer winter range
Eliminate elk from non native ranges (More specific to NV)
Plant deer appropriate browse and protect it
Kill a few predators
Attachments
Seen a lot in 68 years. And it was after the post WWII boom in mule deer.
Was told they have been in decline for thousands of years and have trouble adapting to changes.
Lived in 2 states that once had insane numbers and quality. Now they are few in both.
Did see the tag numbers reduced again in my home unit. Finally, but probably too late.
Unlimited OTC is sanctioned poaching IMHO.
And elk numbers continue to grow. IMHO
Good thing I like elk too.
Was told they have been in decline for thousands of years and have trouble adapting to changes.
Lived in 2 states that once had insane numbers and quality. Now they are few in both.
Did see the tag numbers reduced again in my home unit. Finally, but probably too late.
Unlimited OTC is sanctioned poaching IMHO.
And elk numbers continue to grow. IMHO
Good thing I like elk too.
ClearCreek
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2017
- Messages
- 426
One of the things found after the first year of The Upper Powder River Mule Deer study, which would have been about 7 to 8 years ago, was the poor body condition of the critters.
The body condition of the Upper Powder River mule deer going into the first winter of the study was poorer (lower body condition score) than the body condition of mule deer in western Wyoming coming out of the winter.
ClearCreek
The body condition of the Upper Powder River mule deer going into the first winter of the study was poorer (lower body condition score) than the body condition of mule deer in western Wyoming coming out of the winter.
ClearCreek
BuzzH
Well-known member
There’s reasons for lack of public comment/participation. The commission meeting was in Cody, the GF has crap outreach, and honestly the public is ignored anyway.
Why drive 300 miles for them to say thanks for your comments we’re going to ignore?
The GF has the poorest leadership I’ve seen since living here. There’s still some good biologists, but they can’t and won’t challenge leadership. They didn’t even stand up to the task force, in fact, were directed not to participate. Yet, director Nevik, in a clear conflict of interest was a task force member.
The GF and commission is going to do exactly what Gordon wants, pointless until an administration change to even waste your time.
I stated the same in testimony at the August meeting in wheatland where the Wyoming public was ignored regarding NR general elk regions. It was a foregone conclusion, intuitively obvious when outfitters didn’t even show up.
The commission definitely ignored @mulecreek, @JM77 and I. In spite of the written public comments and our testimony.
I’ve lost confidence in the GF doing the right thing, they’re in a hurry to become Montana. Sad.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
@Oak I see what you did there
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Does the method try to replicate the impact of fire? Minus not unlocking nutrients that fire would do, is the main difference in the types of grasses planted? Good for cattle, mediocre for mule deer.
The Biological Chernobyl continues.
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
This particular method is strictly to remove everything and start with a clean slate in which to seed “desirable” grasses.
I personally would categorize crested as mediocre for cattle, and bad for mule deer. Cattle won’t graze it either once it heads out. They seek out the natives, which puts even more negative pressure on those species. It also alters soil microbiology and makes it extremely difficult to re-establish native plants once it’s there. We generally see loss of overall species diversity, loss of native grass species, loss of native forb species once crested gets established.
I spend a good chunk of my time trying to figure out how to manage lands to slow down or reverse non-native invasion, including crested. So far we have not been very successful.
kwyeewyk
Well-known member
We've had some small scale success but it literally required 3 years of chemical and mechanical fallow followed by heavy native drill seeding and several more years of follow up treatments, approaching $1500/acre.
44hunter45
Well-known member
CA
I've mentioned before that I come from a family that figured game laws didn't apply to meat hunting. Our 1960's deer camps in East Central California were a production affair.
It was damn near a buffalo jump. A kill box was set up and the men would push the dear into it. Anyone old enough to shoot, women and older kids, were the killers.
I was 4-5 years old but have clear memories of it. The goal was to shoot the bucks, but by-catch was inevitable. It all got butchered and shared out between the families.
We killed a few bucks in that oak savanna that were coming in to eat alfalfa with our cows. By the late 1970s it was rare to see that. We never gave a thought to management or habitat. Doe killing was NEVER legal in California in my time there.
I look at the steep fall in this chart after '61 and I cringe. I killed my last D7 buck in 1986. It was toothless and in velvet in October.
antlerradar
Well-known member
When you look at many of the old pictures of Eastern Montana. Most have very few trees and little sage brush. Fire scientists estimate that fire frequency in eastern Montana was every 15 to 25 years pre settlement. Simply impossible to have large expanses of big sage with that frequency of fires. It may well be that the boom in sage grouse and mule deer in the 50's was not the norm, but the result of fire suppression.
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perma
Well-known member
What's funny about this is that when I watched that meeting, I saw where that one commissioner (forgot his name) quizzed you on 'what would you do' about the elk populations, where you had suggested to harvest more cows. Seemed very clear that it went in one ear and out the other, then they voted on it within a matter of seconds. seconds. Cryptic how fast it all happened. Feels like public comment is more of a formality than it is a tool to manage wildlife.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
The farmer that is leasing my ground right now is growing western wheatgrass for seed. Seed is fairly expensive at over $10 a pound and most of the seed production is purchased by the BLM. I can understand why it is expensive. He only gets 2 crops in 3 years, and it requires labor intensive hand pulling of weeds to keep the seed crop pure.
I like it because the field only gets plowed once in 3 years and the weed management is good. The non native pheasants have found it to their liking as well this summer, and next years crop will likely be phenomenal!
I believe there is a growing awarness towards returning the land to native plants and grasses, and it will take a while, but we are going in the right direction.
I like it because the field only gets plowed once in 3 years and the weed management is good. The non native pheasants have found it to their liking as well this summer, and next years crop will likely be phenomenal!
I believe there is a growing awarness towards returning the land to native plants and grasses, and it will take a while, but we are going in the right direction.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
Imagine this. Every time your productivity slips at work. You simply suggest to management that the owners lower their expectations. So management talks to ownership and, they, do!?
The ship is sinking and instead of grabbing a bucket and bailing water the crew is happily drawing a new plimsoll line on the hull.
The ship is sinking and instead of grabbing a bucket and bailing water the crew is happily drawing a new plimsoll line on the hull.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Yeah, Rusty Bell asked the question. What a joke, they still think killing bulls and giving out transferable landowner tags is the answer to reducing elk populations. Right after that testimony, Doug Brimeyer and Rick King caught Steve, Jeff, and I and tried to explain it wasn’t as bad as it sounded. I asked King if he wanted to bet me 10k I’d be back in front of the commission trying to stop raising NR region general elk quotas. He wouldn’t take the bet…
Then to ice the cake he says, “we’re really hoping you guys will fight the crap that’s coming this legislative session”.
Sure thing, get right on it after I get this knife out of my back.
Not short on nerve I’ll give them that.
A lot of ranchers like crested wheatgrass because it can handle multiple grazings, still greens up after the fall rains, and can handle high alkaline soils. Your previous comments about private lands falls right in line with the Savory grazing plan and not resting soils.
Others were talking about sagebrush, I wonder how much winter fat has been depleted since 1950, and it is highly beneficial for wintering mule deer and other big game.
So they can keep selling tags and annihilating the mule deer herd.
$$$ Duh!
