Maybe common sense says to wait until the survey proves there are violations and what the BLM response is.
Wilks brothers true colors are shining through.....
- Thread starter wingman1
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Maybe common sense says to wait until the survey proves there are violations and what the BLM response is.
RobG
Well-known member
I really don't care about the property lines. Pay a fine, move a fence a few feet, big deal. The elk won't care. BLM has already confirmed that the fences are illegal according to MT code and their own rules and their GPS story is just bull since they have no data to back it up. The dozer tracks are by their own admission on BLM property, however they only have threatened enforcement action against hunters landing off road. At least they could have cited the worker who drove his four wheeler onto BLM and took a dump.
They have only given in as much as Kat has forced them to. Someone with meaning needs to be asking why the BLM is singling out hunters for minor infractions while ignoring the bigger issues. Again, just my opinion.
katqanna
Well-known member
Cowboy, the survey will show if there is any encroachment, but the fence construction is already a known violation (structure standards), even if it is all on private land. The Wilks did not consult with either BLM or DNRC about this fence construction, nor obtain permits beforehand. There are other trespass violations listed in that handbook besides encroachment - they even list a section for multi-trespass.
I-3 1. a. " 'Trespass' means any use, occupancy or development of the public lands or their resources without authorization where authorization is required to do so from the United States, or exceeds such authorization, or which causes unnecessary or undue degradation of the land or resources."
Then they go on to define willful and nonwillful trespass, surface disturbance (III-2) - "Where surface disturbance (clearing, blading, digging, scalping, etc.) is involved, the above activities are considered unauthorized development as described in C.3 Unauthorized Development." This goes on to mention fences as a resource development as well as road and trail development (if you saw how wide the swaths are you would think "road" not "trail". III-3 brings up the multi-trespass portion. VI B explains Personal Property, "Unauthorized personal property (for purposes of this Chapter) includes machinery, trailers, vehicles, irrigation and mining equipment, construction debris and other worthless, discarded personal items such as household trash, appliances, etc., that collectively can be classified as litter, garbage or rubbish. Other personal property items may consist of rocks, rubble, and vegetative materials removed from private land and deposited on public land. These items are usually dumped with the full knowledge that the owner does not own the land or have the right to deposit the unwanted, discarded items on the land. THUS, THE ACTION USUALLY CONSTITUTES KNOWING AND WILLFUL TRESPASS." (Their caps, not mine).
I dont have time right now, but I have pics of such and some of these massive vegetative debris piles were too large for a picture so I had to stand by the fence and do a 180 with the video so that you could get the full scope. I will see if I can get to at least a small editing to put up tomorrow (trying to get the other gear together to head back up for the three day.)
I-3 1. a. " 'Trespass' means any use, occupancy or development of the public lands or their resources without authorization where authorization is required to do so from the United States, or exceeds such authorization, or which causes unnecessary or undue degradation of the land or resources."
Then they go on to define willful and nonwillful trespass, surface disturbance (III-2) - "Where surface disturbance (clearing, blading, digging, scalping, etc.) is involved, the above activities are considered unauthorized development as described in C.3 Unauthorized Development." This goes on to mention fences as a resource development as well as road and trail development (if you saw how wide the swaths are you would think "road" not "trail". III-3 brings up the multi-trespass portion. VI B explains Personal Property, "Unauthorized personal property (for purposes of this Chapter) includes machinery, trailers, vehicles, irrigation and mining equipment, construction debris and other worthless, discarded personal items such as household trash, appliances, etc., that collectively can be classified as litter, garbage or rubbish. Other personal property items may consist of rocks, rubble, and vegetative materials removed from private land and deposited on public land. These items are usually dumped with the full knowledge that the owner does not own the land or have the right to deposit the unwanted, discarded items on the land. THUS, THE ACTION USUALLY CONSTITUTES KNOWING AND WILLFUL TRESPASS." (Their caps, not mine).
I dont have time right now, but I have pics of such and some of these massive vegetative debris piles were too large for a picture so I had to stand by the fence and do a 180 with the video so that you could get the full scope. I will see if I can get to at least a small editing to put up tomorrow (trying to get the other gear together to head back up for the three day.)
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Dinkshooter
Well-known member
This is amusing
Signed the Wilkes brothers.
Signed the Wilkes brothers.
katqanna
Well-known member
I love playing pinball, actually addicted to pinball is more like it. At any rate when I read the multi-trespass section of the handbook, I couldnt help but think of the pinball games that have multi-balls in play at one time (which I love). Which then prompted an editorial cartoon image in my head of a Wilks Fencing pinball game image. I am sorry, I know I am a smartass and its getting late. 
Jelf
New member
I was delighted to read that BLM is sending in a survey crew. Assuming that crew produces survey grade coordinates, then I volunteer to produce a map link that shows those surveyed corners with section lines running between them. That map will shed a lot of light on the accuracy of both (1) the section lines printed on the scanned topo and (2) the section lines as shown by the GIS ownership data.
When that data is available, the best way to reach me is via my contact page:
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4_contact.html
Here is a map link centered near a section corner close to Durfee Gap. Note there is about a 50 foot difference between the section corner on the topo and the GIS section corner. To see the GIS data better, change the basemap to an aerial view. You can also click on the scale symbol to change it from meters to feet.
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gma...name=Meridians&layers=0,4,13&transparent=true
I suspect that if you drew a circle with a 50 foot radius centered at the midpoint between a topo map section corner and GIS section corner, then there would be a good chance that the true corner would be in that circle. Of course that opinion is merely a SWAG and some true corners would certainly be outside of that circle.
If anyone has a coordinate and then want to find that spot using the map link I posted, then do Menu ==> Search and enter your coordinate in the search window at the top of the screen.
Joseph
RobG
Well-known member
Important reminder from the BLM: http://www.blm.gov/mt/st/en/info/newsroom/2014/october/blm_reminds_visitors.html
Tread lightly, land only on a motorized route, and remember to pack out your cigarette butts and game hides (unless hanging on a fence still attached to an animal) leaving the site cleaner than you found it.
Tread lightly, land only on a motorized route, and remember to pack out your cigarette butts and game hides (unless hanging on a fence still attached to an animal) leaving the site cleaner than you found it.
bigskyblueman
Member
Spoke with Sen. Tester and Rep. Daines respective offices today to request any oversight they can provide in this matter.
Bivy
Member
I get the impression that the majority of contributors to this thread have never met Dan or Farris Wilkes, or stepped foot in the Durfee Hills. And, sadly, I think many of these folks are the loudest voices on the bandwagon to villianize them.
I may not align with them politically, I may not agree with the design of their fence, and I may not support their attempt at a land exchange, but I do not believe they are as terrible as often made out.
As a hunter that has spent time in the Durfees and other public lands bordered by Wilkes Ranch and personally seen the fence construction, I have this to say. When you are dealing with the quantity of elk as found in these herds, a fence doesn't stand a chance. The elk have their crossings, and while the leaders may bear some bumps and bruises from the process, the crossings will once again open up with broken wires and bent posts. Additionally, the Wilkes aren't the only ones building fence like this. This past weekend while hunting a private ranch in the area (that allows public access for those that ask), I encountered a fence very similar. My point is...there are A LOT of fences out there, old and new, that aren't wildlife friendly.
And, I would also like to bring to everyones attention that the Wilkes brothers have authorized their employees to assist any hunter that knocks on their door to recover game that has crossed onto Wilkes deeded land. Of which the employees have assisted with multiple recoveries this year, even volunteering to help with the quartering and packing.
I may not align with them politically, I may not agree with the design of their fence, and I may not support their attempt at a land exchange, but I do not believe they are as terrible as often made out.
As a hunter that has spent time in the Durfees and other public lands bordered by Wilkes Ranch and personally seen the fence construction, I have this to say. When you are dealing with the quantity of elk as found in these herds, a fence doesn't stand a chance. The elk have their crossings, and while the leaders may bear some bumps and bruises from the process, the crossings will once again open up with broken wires and bent posts. Additionally, the Wilkes aren't the only ones building fence like this. This past weekend while hunting a private ranch in the area (that allows public access for those that ask), I encountered a fence very similar. My point is...there are A LOT of fences out there, old and new, that aren't wildlife friendly.
And, I would also like to bring to everyones attention that the Wilkes brothers have authorized their employees to assist any hunter that knocks on their door to recover game that has crossed onto Wilkes deeded land. Of which the employees have assisted with multiple recoveries this year, even volunteering to help with the quartering and packing.
ShootsManyBullets
Well-known member
Holy cow this is the longest thread I've ever read. That road hunter was entertaining to say the least.
My off topic thought at some point was "I wonder what this thread would have spiraled into if it was on MM?"
Anyway, I'm probably like most of us in that I'm following with fascination and also really appreciate all the work many of you are doing representing our rights to enjoy public lands. Thank you.
My off topic thought at some point was "I wonder what this thread would have spiraled into if it was on MM?"
Anyway, I'm probably like most of us in that I'm following with fascination and also really appreciate all the work many of you are doing representing our rights to enjoy public lands. Thank you.
katqanna
Well-known member
Tjones, thanks.
Bivy, I have never met the Wilks, they may be great guys, but having met someone does not change how many wires are on that fence, nor the height, bottom wire and whether or not its smooth, enclosing public lands with a fence that is not in compliance, nor any of the ground disturbance or vegetative piles. As I have stated before, and in the article, this is not exclusive to the Wilks fencing, which is part of the point.
There was a passage in the BLM Trespass Handbook which stated,
I like that, an educated Public, helping the agency that is the trustee of our public lands and resources. This is a learning situation for many of us, including the Wilks, that this is not Texas with 1.9% of Federal Public Lands - this is Montana with 8,005,646 acres BLM land, 125,044 Bureau of Reclamation, 923,734 USFWS, 1,188,786 NPS and 17,048,025 Forest Service, not to leave out the 5,182,439 DNRC and 405,817 acres of FWP. Having been born and raised in Texas, I went through culture shock with all this Public Trust, but I embraced it and now I fight for it. I am not trying to recreate or do things as they were in Texas, here in Montana.
Since it was brought up, I did not wish to go into details about anothers hunt but was given permission if the subject came up. Two of the guys I was out with got an elk, that after shot, jumped the fence to the Wilks side. They called Mike Sedgwick, the manager, who gave permission and they were able to retrieve it. Which was nice, so they didnt lose it or possibly have a waste of game situation. But Bivy, as nice as that is, that still does not alter this fence, the lack of survey, etc., which need to follow Federal Public Lands regulations.
Bivy, I have never met the Wilks, they may be great guys, but having met someone does not change how many wires are on that fence, nor the height, bottom wire and whether or not its smooth, enclosing public lands with a fence that is not in compliance, nor any of the ground disturbance or vegetative piles. As I have stated before, and in the article, this is not exclusive to the Wilks fencing, which is part of the point.
There was a passage in the BLM Trespass Handbook which stated,
I like that, an educated Public, helping the agency that is the trustee of our public lands and resources. This is a learning situation for many of us, including the Wilks, that this is not Texas with 1.9% of Federal Public Lands - this is Montana with 8,005,646 acres BLM land, 125,044 Bureau of Reclamation, 923,734 USFWS, 1,188,786 NPS and 17,048,025 Forest Service, not to leave out the 5,182,439 DNRC and 405,817 acres of FWP. Having been born and raised in Texas, I went through culture shock with all this Public Trust, but I embraced it and now I fight for it. I am not trying to recreate or do things as they were in Texas, here in Montana.
Since it was brought up, I did not wish to go into details about anothers hunt but was given permission if the subject came up. Two of the guys I was out with got an elk, that after shot, jumped the fence to the Wilks side. They called Mike Sedgwick, the manager, who gave permission and they were able to retrieve it. Which was nice, so they didnt lose it or possibly have a waste of game situation. But Bivy, as nice as that is, that still does not alter this fence, the lack of survey, etc., which need to follow Federal Public Lands regulations.
Bivy
Member
I concur with your statements Katqanna. And, I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into these issues. Issues plural, because, as you state, these problems aren't exclusive to the Wilkes.
Thank you for also confirming the retrieval of game from Wilkes Ranch deeded lands. The main impetus for my previous comment was to bring this to light. Every year I hear stories of mortally wounded elk that travel onto Wilkes Ranch property and no attempt is made at recovery because of fear of repercussions or denied access.
Thank you for also confirming the retrieval of game from Wilkes Ranch deeded lands. The main impetus for my previous comment was to bring this to light. Every year I hear stories of mortally wounded elk that travel onto Wilkes Ranch property and no attempt is made at recovery because of fear of repercussions or denied access.
RobG
Well-known member
Bivy - there is a large part of me that wants to believe the Wilks aren't acting maliciously or spitefully and I am glad to hear their employees are helpful to hunters. I personally don't care if the fence is a few feet on or off the property and the fence construction could be an oversight since it is similar to other fences. If they want to ruin the place for hunting there are more effective ways of doing so than making the wire spacings of a fence a few inches off. In fact, our own publicity will probably have a greater negative effect than that fence.
I think the actual Wilks activities have distracted people's attention from the fact that such stuff - and often worse stuff - goes on all the time. My biggest issue is with how the BLM handled this when these illegal activities were brought to light with clear documentation. The BLM needs to answer to the public, not to whoever is currently pulling their puppet strings. Kudos to Kat for doing BLMs work, but if OTHER people don't speak up and fix the underlying problem all this is just a game of whac-a-mole. I'm not sure why the mainstream groups aren't proving leadership here...
I think the actual Wilks activities have distracted people's attention from the fact that such stuff - and often worse stuff - goes on all the time. My biggest issue is with how the BLM handled this when these illegal activities were brought to light with clear documentation. The BLM needs to answer to the public, not to whoever is currently pulling their puppet strings. Kudos to Kat for doing BLMs work, but if OTHER people don't speak up and fix the underlying problem all this is just a game of whac-a-mole. I'm not sure why the mainstream groups aren't proving leadership here...
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Horn Seeker
New member
Rob... thanks for reposting that pic... it pretty well sums up this whole situation...
katqanna
Well-known member
I am heading back up today for a few days, which will enable me to get much more footage and document the gps with the map. As soon as I get back I will put it all together for a virtual tour of sorts, where people can click on a spot and the picture/video or detail window will open up. I figure that will be the easiest way to relate the information. If anyone has other suggestions, please dont hesitate to share or email me pics with descriptions in which parcel they occur so that we can document this better. [email protected]
RobG
Well-known member
Thanks Kat. I guess I'm going to hold off on exercising the "nuclear option" until people get back from the opener.
I need to pack up for tomorrow anyway. Happy elking everyone!
Jelf
New member
Here is an idea for anyone that wants to use their GPS to locate section corners/lines either in this area or anywhere else. Here is the concept:
1. Find the area where you are going on the Gmap4 maps.
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gma...name=Meridians&layers=0,4,13&transparent=true
2. Use the Menu ==> "Draw and save" feature to trace the section lines and/or the GIS ownership lines. After you turn this feature on, select waypoint and linepoint. Then start clicking the map. Each point is draggable.
3. You can rightclick any point and edit the name and/or description.
4. Rightclick any point again to save your work as a GPX file.
5. Load this GPX file into your GPS
Your GPX file will have (1) waypoints and (2) routepoints.
The firmware in your GPS does different things with these two different kinds of points.
If you make this route active then it will appear on your GPS screen.
But always keep in mind that this data is not survey grade.
If you want to read the documentation about drawing on the map, here is a pdf file:
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/help_files/gmap4_trip_planning_and_custom_maps.pdf
Joseph
1. Find the area where you are going on the Gmap4 maps.
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gma...name=Meridians&layers=0,4,13&transparent=true
2. Use the Menu ==> "Draw and save" feature to trace the section lines and/or the GIS ownership lines. After you turn this feature on, select waypoint and linepoint. Then start clicking the map. Each point is draggable.
3. You can rightclick any point and edit the name and/or description.
4. Rightclick any point again to save your work as a GPX file.
5. Load this GPX file into your GPS
Your GPX file will have (1) waypoints and (2) routepoints.
The firmware in your GPS does different things with these two different kinds of points.
If you make this route active then it will appear on your GPS screen.
But always keep in mind that this data is not survey grade.
If you want to read the documentation about drawing on the map, here is a pdf file:
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/help_files/gmap4_trip_planning_and_custom_maps.pdf
Joseph
katqanna
Well-known member
Just got back from Durfee Hills. Storm came in last night, dropping temps, higher winds and rain/snow - That was fun flying out. Which brings me to those that made it possible fro me to go and document - First to Wingman who graciously picked me up in Lewistown and flew me in to be able to do this. Second, to Ben and Brittany who were there to elk hunt and shared their camp. I was told not to worry about food or equipment, just my personal stuff. All three were awesome to meet, work with and hear their public hunting stories.
I have a Greater Yellowstone Coordinating Committee tomorrow till 5:00, so I wont be able to edit and get footage up for a few days. Here is just one pic that had to become video to capture the extent of what is going on. It is on the BLM, the boundary just north of the northeast State land, BLM and Wilks corner. This is the Wilks on the left and BLM on the right, just as I was about to turn left/west to continue the fence line. You can see by the fence, which measured between 47"-51" that the cut is wider and the bank on the right is about the same to a wee bit higher. It is what was at the corner that was nasty. I had to shoot video from different angles and wished I had a person for scale reference because these trees were huge. It continued up the fence line to the west.
After I went back near the end of the day to the lowest 40 acre parcel we landed on and had base camp at, I was curious about the fence, which runs on the Fergus County, Musselshell County boundary. BTW, Clint, the camper guy was over there and very nicely asked if I needed any water, I explained that I had plenty, thanking him for the offer. The fence, part of which was built before the Wilks purchased it, cuts off that BLM parcel from those north of it. I had to remove my pack, toss it over the fence and step through an area that had been stretched, to continue north. So when I came back, I wondered if there were any gates on that northern boundary (40 acres) that allowed access to the rest of the BLM public lands. Since I made better time coming back I decided to document this 40 acre parcel before the sun began to set. There was no gate on the north side and all the rest of the fence was the newer tight 5 wire. So when I got to the northeast corner and had to cross south into the 40 acres, I had to toss my pack over the taller 5 wire, no way to spread any of the other wires to step through, and climb the fence. I had to hold on to the wooden corner post while trying to get uncaught on the fence and make sure I didnt loose my balance, ending up like some of those yearlings with their legs twisted up. Last thing I wanted was to have my picture taken, ending up on this Hunt Talk thread of what got caught in the Wilks 5 wire fence. I'll show the map and pictures later of this parcel. There are two gates to and from, but both are on the Wilks property side. I am going to check into why this parcel is cut off from the others.
Thanks again to the public hunters that were concerned enough to make this documentation trip possible. Y'all rock.
I have a Greater Yellowstone Coordinating Committee tomorrow till 5:00, so I wont be able to edit and get footage up for a few days. Here is just one pic that had to become video to capture the extent of what is going on. It is on the BLM, the boundary just north of the northeast State land, BLM and Wilks corner. This is the Wilks on the left and BLM on the right, just as I was about to turn left/west to continue the fence line. You can see by the fence, which measured between 47"-51" that the cut is wider and the bank on the right is about the same to a wee bit higher. It is what was at the corner that was nasty. I had to shoot video from different angles and wished I had a person for scale reference because these trees were huge. It continued up the fence line to the west.
After I went back near the end of the day to the lowest 40 acre parcel we landed on and had base camp at, I was curious about the fence, which runs on the Fergus County, Musselshell County boundary. BTW, Clint, the camper guy was over there and very nicely asked if I needed any water, I explained that I had plenty, thanking him for the offer. The fence, part of which was built before the Wilks purchased it, cuts off that BLM parcel from those north of it. I had to remove my pack, toss it over the fence and step through an area that had been stretched, to continue north. So when I came back, I wondered if there were any gates on that northern boundary (40 acres) that allowed access to the rest of the BLM public lands. Since I made better time coming back I decided to document this 40 acre parcel before the sun began to set. There was no gate on the north side and all the rest of the fence was the newer tight 5 wire. So when I got to the northeast corner and had to cross south into the 40 acres, I had to toss my pack over the taller 5 wire, no way to spread any of the other wires to step through, and climb the fence. I had to hold on to the wooden corner post while trying to get uncaught on the fence and make sure I didnt loose my balance, ending up like some of those yearlings with their legs twisted up. Last thing I wanted was to have my picture taken, ending up on this Hunt Talk thread of what got caught in the Wilks 5 wire fence.
I'll show the map and pictures later of this parcel. There are two gates to and from, but both are on the Wilks property side. I am going to check into why this parcel is cut off from the others.Thanks again to the public hunters that were concerned enough to make this documentation trip possible. Y'all rock.
bigskyblueman
Member
I received a telephone call from Sen. Testers' office yesterday confirming their contact with the BLM over this situation.
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