Caribou Gear

Fake meat and future of animals for food.

neffa3 said:
Whether it's cheaper or not to grow/pollute in the US vs China I won't say. But I do believe the raising livestock in this country has serious adverse effects on human health and the environment (not the actual meat itself though). Is it better here, probably. But it still has negative effects and industry and those to preach the dollar over all else still keep regulations low enough that negative effects continue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...0f81cc58c5d_story.html?utm_term=.3a2caf3c8b9c

I know if I was one of the people who had my well contaminated I'd want increased regulations for stock operations in floodplains. And in terms of Organic food taking over the market and leading to more land under ag. I'll take 10x more this:
View attachment 92804

Over this:
View attachment 92805
Click to expand...

As idyllic as that picture is, those hogs are competing with wildlife for resources while feeding fewer people than the hogs in the industrial facility.

My grandmother grew up on a small hog/cotton farm similar to the picture above. Market forces made their farm uncompetitive and now that land is a forest with a large number of deer and other wildlife. No doubt I long for a more pastoral lifestyle but not at the expense of nature and wild places.

I do agree regulations need to address ecological effects of any operation, large and small.
 
While I prefer to raise, grow, and hunt the best quality foods as much as possible, I also understand the need to have large scale/big ag operations while it is by no means perfect. There are over 300 million people in this country, many who cannot afford the cost that small scale producers require to stay profitable and lack the means to procure themselves. Many commodity markets are already subsidized and vegetables imported hiding the true cost of even large scale ag products. Now imagine what would happens if there was no affordable food to the masses.
As stated I know there are many flaws but at this time I cannot see a viable way to sustain the country without "big ag". Fortunately we can choose to sustains ourselves without it and damn is it satisfying.
Just my opinions
 
2rocky said:
From a nutrient (manure) Management standpoint ONLY, the bottom picture production system will have less impact on riparian waterways, provided they have an adequate manure lagoon system. Even with the higher density of animals.
Click to expand...

Until they don't. Did you read the link in my post? It's all fine and dandy until it isn't. Lagoon management is great, until it fails, almost always catastrophically.
 
beginnerhunter said:
As idyllic as that picture is, those hogs are competing with wildlife for resources while feeding fewer people than the hogs in the industrial facility.
Click to expand...

The point is wildlife can co-exist with the pastured hogs. There is zero wildlife associated with the other. It's the same argument I make to vegans who can't understand that there'e organic salad greens are grown in sterile monocultures in the Salinas valley, while you can find literally hundreds of native species of plants and animals on my families free range beef pastures.
 
neffa3 said:
The point is wildlife can co-exist with the pastured hogs. There is zero wildlife associated with the other. It's the same argument I make to vegans who can't understand that there'e organic salad greens are grown in sterile monocultures in the Salinas valley, while you can find literally hundreds of native species of plants and animals on my families free range beef pastures.
Click to expand...

Good point about the salad greens. As money is available bigger farms will always take over a market. Look at organic milk. The price the producer is paid per gallon is not that much higher than conventional. When margins are low the only way to increase income is produce more. A friend of ours promotes grass fed beef and says his end consumers are less interested in how and more interested in where and who. If they feel close to the producer and trust them then they are satisfied that they are getting a high quality product.
 
neffa3 said:
The point is wildlife can co-exist with the pastured hogs. There is zero wildlife associated with the other. It's the same argument I make to vegans who can't understand that there'e organic salad greens are grown in sterile monocultures in the Salinas valley, while you can find literally hundreds of native species of plants and animals on my families free range beef pastures.
Click to expand...

Did you see that article on medium? It was arguing that veganism is responsible for more animal deaths/disturbance than animal consumption. Probably due to the lower nutritional value of plants and the points you bring up here (although I think I've seen elsewhere that cattle cause more carbon emissions than plant based substitution even when accounting for equipment emissions. I could be wrong).

We're still going to need efficient, large scale farming. But I do wonder if the article I linked to earlier accounted for the ecological effects of switching all cattle products to soy.
 
VikingsGuy said:
Second, one Rolling Stone hackjob is not facts.
Click to expand...

What facts are you debating from the rolling stones article?

In the end everything I said was true. Foreign companies do own substantial parts of the meat business in the US for the reasons mentioned in the article including environmental rules related to the water they contaminate with their lagoons. There is really no debating that as there are endless articles discussing it.

What has really happened here is a few of you were not aware of the foreign companies involved in the meat business here in the USA. I pointed that out and you all thought I was crazy. Turns out I was right, China and Brazil are heavily involved in the US meat business.

But it is entertaining to watch you 3 try to save face. Lots of "I agree with him" and little actual info LOL.

Here is another from a brazilian company. Remember pink slime? It's now officially ground beef as of last month. Does that make you feel safe?
https://www.feedstuffs.com/news/bpi-can-now-call-lean-finely-textured-beef-product-ground-beef

The gangsters and thieves comment was from this, again you simply don't keep up with this and question if I was talking about the mafia, lol. Please read this and try to understand what this has done to the ranching industry and the safety of our food supply.
https://nobull.mikecallicrate.com/2...nue-to-suck-the-blood-out-of-cattle-industry/

So please keep telling me my wires are crossed and I will keep showing you the reality of the meat business in the US. It's not nearly as safe as you 3 seem to think it is once you look behind the curtain.
 
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VAspeedgoat said:
As a matter of fact yes, the op was on fake meat and how it may eventually have an effect on hunting. It was not on meat in the USA. As I was sarcastically pointing out, your wires were crossed. Tried to do it even less tacfully but you still haven't figured it out

To the op, I am sorry your thread got hacked by this and I am sorry I had a part in it. I should have just left it alone. Sorry
Click to expand...

What specific part of my opinion on the meat industry causes you to think my wires are crossed?

It seems to me that you are trying to make this personal and providing little if any points. It's actually funny to look back at your posts here.

So were you trying to make a point about the meat business?

TIA
 
2rocky said:
Thank you for stating what I was going to say. We are 100% on the same page.
Click to expand...

What specifically about my points caused you to say my wires were crossed?

Were you unaware of the environmental regulations that make the US a inexpensive place to raise livestock?
Were you unaware of the impact these farms have on the water?

Here is a good example of the impact and the system where smithfield owns the hogs and the farmer/state owns the $hit.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...of-hog-waste-in-north-carolina-after-florence
 
PrairieHunter said:
What specifically about my points caused you to say my wires were crossed?

Were you unaware of the environmental regulations that make the US a inexpensive place to raise livestock?
Were you unaware of the impact these farms have on the water?

Here is a good example of the impact and the system where smithfield owns the hogs and the farmer/state owns the $hit.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...of-hog-waste-in-north-carolina-after-florence
Click to expand...

It makes more business sense to buy into a functioning business unit with infrastructure including inputs, processing plants, distribution, and labor than to try and create something of that size in China. While the Chinese are improving their pork production methods, they still have issues with disease, and antiquated processing facilities that they have to overcome before they can get to that sort of volume created in the Southeast US. They are headed in that direction though.

As for Environmental regulations, all states have to abide by the EPA rules for CAFO's. Especially on the east coast, where P is measured and Phytase is REQUIRED in the Feed like in the Chesapeake Bay Watershed.

Feel free to read the Clean Water act and tell us where Swine farming operations in North Carolina are exempt from following them. Some states like California, actually have tougher standards than the Federal standards for CAFO's.


But if you want to get some real info talk to this guy.... I invited him to talk to our Professional Animal Scientist group. He is doing the leading research on Air quality from agriculture, and Addressed the lab grown meat alternative. I'll let him address it .


Here is a good article on the lab meat option
 
PrairieHunter said:
What facts are you debating from the rolling stones article?

In the end everything I said was true. Foreign companies do own substantial parts of the meat business in the US for the reasons mentioned in the article including environmental rules related to the water they contaminate with their lagoons. There is really no debating that as there are endless articles discussing it.

What has really happened here is a few of you were not aware of the foreign companies involved in the meat business here in the USA. I pointed that out and you all thought I was crazy. Turns out I was right, China and Brazil are heavily involved in the US meat business.

But it is entertaining to watch you 3 try to save face. Lots of "I agree with him" and little actual info LOL.

Here is another from a brazilian company. Remember pink slime? It's now officially ground beef as of last month. Does that make you feel safe?
https://www.feedstuffs.com/news/bpi-can-now-call-lean-finely-textured-beef-product-ground-beef

The gangsters and thieves comment was from this, again you simply don't keep up with this and question if I was talking about the mafia, lol. Please read this and try to understand what this has done to the ranching industry and the safety of our food supply.
https://nobull.mikecallicrate.com/2...nue-to-suck-the-blood-out-of-cattle-industry/

So please keep telling me my wires are crossed and I will keep showing you the reality of the meat business in the US. It's not nearly as safe as you 3 seem to think it is once you look behind the curtain.
Click to expand...

You said you had provided facts, but at that time all you did was post a link to RS. That was what I was pointing to.

US environmental rules are second only to the EU and Japan in their strictness - far more so that the other countries you reference. I've done business in these countries, have you?

I never said non-US based companies didn't own some US food companies - you assume ignorance from your own - I am very aware of the players in this industry. But, yes, I do think you are crazy.

Sorry, but the conventional use of the term gangster implies violence, thuggery, extortion, vice, murder, etc., not white collar bribery (but we can both agree that is still a bad thing).

I never said your wires are crossed that was a different poster. But I do think you have a big chip on your shoulder, validate your assumptions with less than credible sources, extrapolate generalized bad behavior to support your unrelated but more specific unsubstantiated allegations and have an unhealthy fear of people outside the US at best (I put that kindly, stronger words probably would have applied).

I am done responding to you PH, but if anybody else on HT wants an intelligent discussion about our food chain, I am happy to share my 20+ years of global food production experience. All is not perfect, but actually food has never been cheaper, safer and more sustainable than it is today - and a billion more people will go to bed with food in their bellies because of this system you call a mess. But the internet is for grinding axes, fearing strangers, concocting conspiracies and spreading fear, so this is nothing new.
 
VikingsGuy said:
You said you had provided facts, but at that time all you did was post a link to RS. That was what I was pointing to.

US environmental rules are second only to the EU and Japan in their strictness - far more so that the other countries you reference. I've done business in these countries, have you?

I never said non-US based companies didn't own some US food companies - you assume ignorance from your own - I am very aware of the players in this industry. But, yes, I do think you are crazy.

Sorry, but the conventional use of the term gangster implies violence, thuggery, extortion, vice, murder, etc., not white collar bribery (but we can both agree that is still a bad thing).

I never said your wires are crossed that was a different poster. But I do think you have a big chip on your shoulder, validate your assumptions with less than credible sources, extrapolate generalized bad behavior to support your unrelated but more specific unsubstantiated allegations and have an unhealthy fear of people outside the US at best (I put that kindly, stronger words probably would have applied).

I am done responding to you PH, but if anybody else on HT wants an intelligent discussion about our food chain, I am happy to share my 20+ years of global food production experience. All is not perfect, but actually food has never been cheaper, safer and more sustainable than it is today - and a billion more people will go to bed with food in their bellies because of this system you call a mess. But the internet is for grinding axes, fearing strangers, concocting conspiracies and spreading fear, so this is nothing new.
Click to expand...

From a fellow "corporate factory farmer", thanks VikingsGuy for taking the time to respond with reason in this thread. It's a never ending job to play internet whack-a-mole with misinformation about the food industry, modern agriculture, and more recently the technology and advanced breeding techniques surrounding our food supply. It is truly remarkable to observe the amount of western arrogance that goes into the rejection of the most modern, safe, and efficient model of food production that has ever been developed, period.

It is certainly admirable to praise wildlife conservation and efficient land use, but once we cross the perceived aisle and bash the food production system that actually feeds everyone in this country then we have a problem. Sure, there is always room to improve the system and we are definitely still in pursuit of perfection.

It likely all boils down to a communication issue. Less than 2% of the population is involved in agriculture. Now, 100% of the population is involved in the media with these little computers in our pockets. How about we get a few ranchers on all of these new hunting podcasts popping up? I would venture to guess that a guy that actually owns a chunk of ground and is involved in raising animals or producing food has a lot more insight on conservation and land use issues than some insta-famous idiot running around the west filming himself looking for shed antlers and bumping wintering game, or worse, peddling flat billed caps.

Just my 2 cents.
 
beginnerhunter said:
https://nypost.com/2019/01/09/how-a-veggie-burger-stole-the-show-at-ces-2019/

“This is the plant-based ‘meat’ that will eliminate the need for animals in the food chain and make the global food system sustainable,”

Obviously none of us quit hunting when we found out you could get meat from the store. But one of the moral justifications for hunting is that non-hunting meat eaters have "blood on their hands" same as us. They just don't see it happen. If fake-meat meat becomes economically competitive with regular meat, fake-meat eaters will be able to claim a moral high ground they don't have now. And while you may think humanity will never be able to create indistinguishable fake-meat, examine the small computer in your hand and rethink what is possible.

So if market forces eliminate the need for livestock and animal farming, will cultures still tolerate hunting as a tradition?
Click to expand...


I don't believe the thought that general consumers have blood on their hands is a "moral justification" for hunting. Are there folks that actually think that way?
And farming does lots to displace animals and destroy habitat so even Vegan's are responsible for animal deaths. Just being alive requires death. Our roads, houses, gardens, everything displaces animals. That's life.

Big Ag is like big city. Yeah it looks bad and dirty and who would want to live there? But I'm dang glad it exists cause I sure as heck don't want all those millions of people spreading out into the country on little 20 acre mini ranches. There would be no more country then.
Concentrated living and production have bad sides, but the only alternative is to reduce the population of the planet significantly. And like someone already said, who do you pick to die?

And no, I don't think soy meat will destroy hunting any more than tofu has.
 
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