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Montana contemplates shooting more cows, less bulls

MTGomer said:
I might be wrong but wasn’t Vore the manager of region 2 when HD 270 collapsed and went from cows on an A tag to limited entry for brow tined bulls?
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He was the Bitterroot bio, under Mike Thompson who was and still is the R2 wildlife manager.

He was here for about 8 years 2000 to 2008 ish. I don't remember the exact years. But starting in 2003 through 2008 under his watch, hunters slaughtered elk like I have never seen. Lots of areas in HD270 have never recovered, and HD250 never will.

But hey the wolves kilt them all.
 
wllm1313 said:
..., but like you said getting an apples to apples comparison is impossible. Not only would you have to quantify viable habitat but how do you deal with state land in the two states, county lands, refuges, etc. ...
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IMO, its not that hard at all. I would much rather hunt Colorado than Montana. THe odds of killing a big bull in MT may be higher, but not much. I've hunted both many, many times and taken nice bulls in both states. I usually see more legal bulls in Colorado in a week than I would in a month hunting in MT. Think about it. CO has twice as many elk in half as much country. I think I've shot 6 or 7 elk in Colorado, and the total combined hunt time is about 9 days, mostly because one of those hunts took me 6 days to fill a tag. I've gone weeks in MT without even seeing an elk.

IMO about 2/3 of Colorado is prime elk habitat and hunting, basically the Front to the UT border. Montana is currently about 1/3 of the state. There is a lot of MT that isn't really good habitat for elk or doesn't hold the numbers of elk.

Montana's elk management is awful, the only thing worse is their mule deer management. I would have never guessed I'd see the day of single digit harvest rates for areas near YNP. Blame the wolves, or the F&G handing out 2 elk tags?
 
I wish Montana and Montanans would change their philosophy.

That said, I have only ever hunted elk in Montana. These threads make me want to go hunt Colorado or Wyoming, as it sounds like it would be easy in comparison.
 
The public can’t kill what they can’t access. Needlessly overly complicated licenses and permits, just a train wreak in management. That said it’s a great state and great people, lots of memories hunting there over the years and I would like to go back.
 
I recommended the Wildlife Services / helicopters to the local FWP biologist and it was clear that she thought I was kidding, or really stupid.

If your goal is a big huge giant bull elk on an easy to obtain license, Montana is your ticket right now, on private land all across the state. MT undoubtedly leads the pack and is superior to all western states right now.

If your goal is a legal bull elk, or even a cow on a general license, public land in MT likely ranks at the bottom of the barrel in the west.
 
tjones said:
He was the Bitterroot bio, under Mike Thompson who was and still is the R2 wildlife manager.

He was here for about 8 years 2000 to 2008 ish. I don't remember the exact years. But starting in 2003 through 2008 under his watch, hunters slaughtered elk like I have never seen. Lots of areas in HD270 have never recovered, and HD250 never will.

But hey the wolves kilt them all.
Click to expand...

That right there, should have cost both Thompson and Vore their jobs. That was perhaps the worst display of elk management I've ever seen and there was no excuse for it. Thompson's other big blunder was OTC unlimited whitetail tags in the Blackfoot.
 
BuzzH said:
That right there, should have cost both Thompson and Vore their jobs. That was perhaps the worst display of elk management I've ever seen and there was no excuse for it. Thompson's other big blunder was OTC unlimited whitetail tags in the Blackfoot.
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There was plenty of howling from hunters during the public meetings when the proposals were to change to more restrictive seasons. I swear those guys would have kept killing cows until there were none left.
 
bigsky2 said:
Maybe they should just stop managing based on landowner tolerance and instead manage based on carrying capacity of the landscape.
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So I’m guessing you and others would also recommend managing wolves, lions, griz, and all other predators for carrying capacity?
 
mdunc8 said:
So I’m guessing you and others would also recommend managing wolves, lions, griz, and all other predators for carrying capacity?
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Lion quotas are so low (which is what houndmen want) they pretty much do. They don’t manage grizzlies

I don’t recommend managing anything at the level wanted by a couple hundred families. Do you?
 
MTGomer said:
Lion quotas are so low (which is what houndmen want) they pretty much do. They don’t manage grizzlies

I don’t recommend managing anything at the level wanted by a couple hundred families. Do you?
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My thoughts exactly.
 
I have an idea. 12-month season on cows only, only private land. No bull permits/tags at all anywhere - until everybody's satisfied with elk numbers. :D
 
I’m not aware. What’s the situation on private tags in MT? Is the landowner allowed to sell access or tags? If they hold all the animals it’s probably because they aren’t allowing much if any hunting there. I really hate the commercialization of hunting. It rubs me the wrong way. It offers some benefits though. We only have better scopes and packs etc. because we pay for them. There has to be some financial incentive for a landowner to allow strangers to enter his property and shoot firearms and possibly tear stuff up etc. to get them to allow hunting on their property. That doesn’t even get into the lost income aspect. If they can make $1000 by raising a cow, they’re going to need to make that back for every cow they can’t raise because of elk. Sure there are lots of rich people can absorb it, but there are just as many small operations that are barely squeaking by. I actually hunt a fair bit of private land free of charge locally, but there are a lot more people that won’t let you hunt at any price than there are people who will let you hunt for free. Again, I don’t know the situation in MT, but if a landowner could pay his property taxes or buy a new truck or trailer because he sold the opportunity to hunt a few elk, he’s going to be more likely to do so.

It comes with its negatives though. Where I live you’d get laughed at if you though you could shoot a management buck for under $1000...if you’re talking to someone who charges. Even so, you can find folks who’ll let you hunt for free. It’s just rare.
 
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Is it time for all units for elk and deer to go to a drawing for R and NR? Limit hunter numbers so maybe everything doesn't grt ran to private as fast?
 
Dieseldog said:
Is it time for all units for elk and deer to go to a drawing for R and NR? Limit hunter numbers so maybe everything doesn't grt ran to private as fast?
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The majority of the elk aren’t running to the private. They are already on the private. The private is hundreds of thousands of acres of awesome habitat with excellent food that they just live on 24/7/365. There are thousands of elk that have never been on a piece of public land. Thousands more that occasionally pass through but live on private. And some, yes that split their time based on season, weather or hunting pressure.
 
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