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  1. #1

    Default Invasive Mtn Goats in GTNP have to go

    These animals need to be removed and selling tags seems like the fiscally responsible way to achieve this.
    Article
    https://buckrail.com/park-wants-to-d...jAAujUSf3QJON0

    Public comment
    https://parkplanning.nps.gov/documen...cumentID=90336
    "Any fool can create a program that is so demanding that it would virtually kill the toughest Marine or hardiest of elite athletes, but not any fool can create a tough program that produces progress without unnecessary pain.” ~ Dr. Mel C. Siff

  2. #2

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    Hey, thanks for the links. I appreciate it. Can you even imagine hunting goats within GTNP? I won't get my hopes up, but... seriously... can you imagine? How awesome would that be?

  3. #3

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    I heard some buzz about this a few years ago from some friends in the area. They mentioned a hunt was considered for the west side of the Tetons (not in GTNP as far as I understand). Hunting goats in Alaska Basin?! Sign me up!

  4. #4
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    Can you even imagine what those tags would cost? I'd love to hunt them, but I'm not kidding myself that I'll ever be able to afford it. Sheep and goats are way to expensive for an average guy like me.

  5. Default

    dont actualy understand the problem,,goats n sheep dont actually utilize the same height
    we have the same problem here in nz,,letting novices have charge of our environment issues

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi hunter View Post
    dont actualy understand the problem,,goats n sheep dont actually utilize the same height
    we have the same problem here in nz,,letting novices have charge of our environment issues
    +1 ^^^^here thank you kiwi

    I happen to think there is a rush to judgement here to remove these goats with no verifiable evidence that they have any effect on bighorns. Bighorns are plenty in trouble in several areas in Wyoming without any mountain goats. I sent my comments in to take no action.

  7. #7
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    These goats and sheep do utilize the same range and compete with each other for limited feed. There has been concern about non native goats competing with native bighorns in the Cooke City area as well. I understand Yellowstone Park officials took out a number of goats under the radar years ago in the N E corner of the park. It's a complicated issue for two of my favorite big game species. Here's a decent article I found on the subject.

    https://relay.nationalgeographic.com...-bighorn-sheep
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    These goats and sheep do utilize the same range and compete with each other for limited feed. There has been concern about non native goats competing with native bighorns in the Cooke City area as well. I understand Yellowstone Park officials took out a number of goats under the radar years ago in the N E corner of the park. It's a complicated issue for two of my favorite big game species. Here's a decent article I found on the subject.

    https://relay.nationalgeographic.com...-bighorn-sheep
    How complicated can it be?

    Native herds of goats have been cohabitating with sheep in BC, MT, AB, YT, and AK for ohhhh about forever.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
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  9. #9

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    So they want to kill off all the mt goats that don't even inhabit the same section of mountains, but take ages to do anything about domestic sheep sharing the same land across the states??

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    How complicated can it be?

    Native herds of goats have been cohabitating with sheep in BC, MT, AB, YT, and AK for ohhhh about forever.
    I wish there was a like button. I'm sure the same people calling for the killing of the goats also say that hunting is not a valid form of conservation

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    How complicated can it be?

    Native herds of goats have been cohabitating with sheep in BC, MT, AB, YT, and AK for ohhhh about forever.
    Read the link buzz. These sheep winter high, they don't go down the mountain like most herds do in the winter. The non native goats have moved into their range and are now competing for the same limited feed. That is rough snowy country on the west side of the Tetons. It will only winter a limited number of animals, be it sheep, mountain goats, or both.
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JosephBrown View Post
    I wish there was a like button. I'm sure the same people calling for the killing of the goats also say that hunting is not a valid form of conservation
    Not entirely accurate. I would favor a hunt to reduce the goat population, but it is in a National park and the reality of hunting there would be slim at best.

    There has been talk about having an unlimited mountain goat hunt in the Wyoming wilderness along the east side of Yellowstone park to reduce their numbers. I would favor that idea as well.
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  13. #13

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    Informative read. Thanks for sharing.


    Steve Kilpatrick, a retired biologist now leading the Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation, was in the mountains on the border of Grand Teton National Park in August surveying sheep as part of an annual effort to keep tabs on its dwindling population.
    Fewer than 100 sheep now comprise the ancient Teton Range herd in northwest Wyoming—one of the most unique in the West. And biologists say it is on the brink of blinking out.
    But the Teton Range herd faces something unusual even for wildlife in the modern world: meandering, invasive, disease-carrying mountain goats.
    “If we stand by and do nothing, the goats will contribute to the demise of the herd,” says Kilpatrick, and they could disappear within a decade without intervention. "It would be a shame to lose this iconic species in an iconic setting, i.e., a national park,” he says. “It reflects how we can or can’t coexist with wildlife in the bigger picture.”
    " There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." - Theodore Roosevelt
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  14. #14
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    What I don't like about the whole issue, is that I've never read any conclusive evidence that mountain goats give sheep pneumonia like is being claimed. Its being perpetuated as a fact, and the fact is, the science doesn't exist. It bothers me that the WYGF is getting in front of the commission claiming there is a disease transmission issue and a need to kill off goats so it doesn't spread to sheep.

    If we're going to manage with science, then do it...otherwise, we're simply placing a hierarchy and playing god with one species taking priority over another...and no longer managing via science.

    Further, if the decision by the Wyoming Game and Fish is to eliminate a species, they should NOT be doing so via using Sportsmen as the tool to eliminate a species. Get the helicopter and buckshot out and let them be the bad-guy that wipes out goats. I don't want hunters anywhere near that grand idea, let the Game and Fish try to justify their ideas via anything to do with science.

    Its a joke...and IMO, the GF and NPS are both a bit off the rails and out in the rhubarb on this one.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  15. #15
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    The science is simple buzz. That area will only feed x number of animals through the average winter. Less in a bad one. The native sheep have a priority over the non native goats.
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    These goats and sheep do utilize the same range and compete with each other for limited feed. There has been concern about non native goats competing with native bighorns in the Cooke City area as well. I understand Yellowstone Park officials took out a number of goats under the radar years ago in the N E corner of the park. It's a complicated issue for two of my favorite big game species. Here's a decent article I found on the subject.

    https://relay.nationalgeographic.com...-bighorn-sheep
    What you posted here is about the only article on the subject. While I have great respect for Christine, IMO she kinda dropped the ball on this one. I contacted her asking for the research for this article and this is what she sent me:

    https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley...002/jwmg.21470
    http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/abs/...code=wdas-site

    If you read these they will tell you that bighorns had a plight with pneumonia and several years or more later in the same range in Nevada, dead mountain kids were tested positive with the pneumonia bacteria. What does that tell you? It tells me it could be more likely that sheep gave it to goats, than the other way around.

    I'm with Buzz on this one, too fast and too little info to take the action described.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM77 View Post
    What you posted here is about the only article on the subject. While I have great respect for Christine, IMO she kinda dropped the ball on this one. I contacted her asking for the research for this article and this is what she sent me:

    https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley...002/jwmg.21470
    http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/abs/...code=wdas-site

    If you read these they will tell you that bighorns had a plight with pneumonia and several years or more later in the same range in Nevada, dead mountain kids were tested positive with the pneumonia bacteria. What does that tell you? It tells me it could be more likely that sheep gave it to goats, than the other way around.

    I'm with Buzz on this one, too fast and too little info to take the action described.
    I would bet money that bighorns transmitted the disease to mountain goats first. To borrow a phrase from Hillary "at this point what difference does it make". I'm also sure that the action described will take years to happen if it happens at all.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    The science is simple buzz. That area will only feed x number of animals through the average winter. Less in a bad one. The native sheep have a priority over the non native goats.
    Then you wont have any problem with providing the habitat data that proves that the goats are harming the available sheep habitat then?
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  19. Default

    Not a smoking gun but a good place to start your research:
    Lowrey, Blake, et al. "Niche similarities among introduced and native mountain ungulates." Ecological Applications 28.5 (2018): 1131-1142.

  20. Default

    And
    Lowrey, Blake, et al. "A Survey of Bacterial Respiratory Pathogens in Native and Introduced Mountain Goats (Oreamnos americanus)." Journal of wildlife diseases (2018).

    The lead author just defended his PhD on this topic a few weeks ago at MSU Bozeman and I know he would be very receptive if you have additional questions.

  21. #21

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    With so many states or areas struggling to establish sheep maybe they should think about getting some of these goats.

    On second thought a random draw for residents with one going to a NR would be fine.

  22. #22
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    Thanks Bonnie. I will check both out.
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  23. #23

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    Olympic National Park in WA tried to deal with non native mountain goats 30 ish years ago by live trapping. They got a bunch out but couldn’t get the rest without lethal methods and they were shut down by congress to prohibit shooting them in the national park. They have since repopulated and are again being live trapped and shipped to other areas in the northwest that want goats.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    Not entirely accurate. I would favor a hunt to reduce the goat population, but it is in a National park and the reality of hunting there would be slim at best.

    There has been talk about having an unlimited mountain goat hunt in the Wyoming wilderness along the east side of Yellowstone park to reduce their numbers. I would favor that idea as well.
    Why not have a goat hunt in GTNP? They already have an Elk hunt there.

  25. #25
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    Blake's advisor is Doctor Garrott. Good work coming out of MSU these days. Lot to digest here, need to spend more time digging into it.

    https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wi...1002/ecs2.1769
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

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