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  1. #51

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    PrairieHunter you make a great point, unethical behavior versus uncouth behavior.

  2. #52

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    You could be in Eastern Montana where there are few roadless areas big enough to warrant a trail head. I have however seen road hunters jockeying for who gets to drive point on a two track.

  3. #53
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    I think there are a couple different things here.

    As far as parking at a trailhead, there's usually ample country to get into and for people to spread out and do their thing. Its not a big deal, and I have no problem with parking there as a take-off point. No problem with others parking here either, its a trailhead.

    That's a bit different when hunting small pieces of public land. If I pull up to a smaller piece of public from a couple hundred acres to maybe even a couple sections, and there's another car there...I'm finding another spot. I don't need an animal so bad that I have to put the screws to another hunter and ruin it for them. I'll come back later and check out another spot in the meantime.

    I'm not one bit afraid to let other hunters know when they're being unethical, intrusive and rude assholes, even if it is "public land".

    The place I hunt elk with a general tag, I've let 2 different groups know exactly what I thought. In both cases, I had guys on ATV's, park within 20-30 feet of my wall tent, get off their bikes, hike the trail that I cut out, and attempt to hunt.

    That kind of crap isn't going to fly, and in both cases, I had no problem administering a right proper ass-chewing on the ethics of hunting right out my camp.

    One group was from out-of-state and they quickly got the not so subtle "hint". The other group knew better, as we've had a long-standing gentleman's agreement on where we hunt the first few days as to stay out of each others way. They got the same ass-chewing as the NR's. A couple days later, their camp patriarch took the time to come to our camp, leave a very nice note and a plate of cookies to smooth things over. They knew better, just forgot their ethics for a day, it happens. We're back in good graces and I suspect that wont happen again.

    It amazes me, some of the replies I'm reading, about the lack of trying to give people their space. Private or public, it doesn't hurt to use some common sense and be respectful of others.

    The term "SPORTSMAN" doesn't seem to carry much weight to some...it does me. Show a lack of it around me, and you'll get a reminder. Which, considering how my family, and the guys I grew up hunting with would handle such behavior, is wayyy better than the "reminder" they would have gotten from those guys.

    Carry on...
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  4. Default

    No offense, Buzzh, because I respect your opinions and I don't know your situation. But a little kindness and explanation can often be a better choice than an ass-chewing, especially with NRs who may not have much experience. Just MHO.

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    This thread can be summed up with one of Rinella's favorite quotes, paraphrased here, "There are two types of hunters. The guys in my party and the assholes."

    The further I hike in, the fewer of both types I have to deal with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COEngineer View Post
    This thread can be summed up with one of Rinella's favorite quotes, paraphrased here, "There are two types of hunters. The guys in my party and the assholes."

    The further I hike in, the fewer of both types I have to deal with.
    That's awesome.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by beginnerhunter View Post
    No offense, Buzzh, because I respect your opinions and I don't know your situation. But a little kindness and explanation can often be a better choice than an ass-chewing, especially with NRs who may not have much experience. Just MHO.
    NR or not, you flat don't park your machine 20 feet from the front door of my wall tent...you aren't getting an explanation...you're getting your ass chewed.

    Who doesn't have the common sense to know better than to pull that crap?

    I don't think an explanation would do those types a bit of good.

    For the record, I'm very kind to NR, and R hunters when they don't act like a bunch of jackasses. Ran into a NR that posts on several boards, including hunttalk, while hunting mule deer this fall. We were both hunting the same spot and I left an area I'd seen a good buck in because he was there first. He ended up killing one of the bucks I had seen and I went over a few hours later to congratulate him on his deer. Super good guy.

    I got the impression he wasn't the type of person to park his ATV 20 feet from my tent...
    Last edited by BuzzH; 12-05-2018 at 04:41 PM.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  8. #58

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    Some might think ‘you flat don’t have exclusive rights to a trail simply because you’re camped on it’.
    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    Some might think ‘you flat don’t have exclusive rights to a trail simply because you’re camped on it’.
    Not camped on the trail, and there isn't room for more than 1 camp...but we do hike out of camp everyday to hunt. They found the trail that my 75 year old buddy and I cut in there by following our tracks in the snow from our camp, after parking 20 feet from the front door. That's douche-baggery no matter how you slice it.

    I really don't care that much as I can out-hunt and out-hike those DB's all day long...everyday. But, it is chickenshit for them to try to ace out a group of guys in their late 70's-early 80's that have been hunting there for nearly 50 years.

    That, I cant abide...and they'll get their ass chewed.

    Lots of other places for them to hunt...and now they do.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by shall12matt View Post
    I was listening to Randy's podcast today about hunting etiquette and I got to thinking about a recent trip I made to a large piece of National Forest land in WY. I arrived at a trail head before shooting time and saw a truck and camper parked there. Knowing the trail was about 3 miles long and that there was thousands of acres of land, I proceeded to get ready. As I was getting my pack on, the person from the camper quickly walked past my wife and I and headed down the trail. I was hoping to chat with him about his plan for the day but he never stopped. A few hundred yards down the trail I ran into him and asked what his plan was so that I could avoid him and not ruin his hunt. He got upset at this point and sort of claimed that he had "dibs" on the trail being he parked his camper there. After talking for awhile we went our separate ways down the trail but he was still unhappy.

    My question is, was in the wrong for continuing down the trail? I can see the issue from both sides and was wondering what other people that hunt more in Western states thought. Let me also add that many of the other trail heads had rigs parked on them and that the day before I was back in the same area and ran into two other groups of hunters.

    Your land just as much as his. Public lands in the Publics hands.
    In a civilized and cultivated country, wild animals only continue to exist at all when preserved by sportsmen. - Theodore Roosevelt

    “A hunt based only on the trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” - Fred Bear

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by hansontyrel View Post
    Your land just as much as his.
    The question was about ethics.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by COEngineer View Post
    This thread can be summed up with one of Rinella's favorite quotes, paraphrased here, "There are two types of hunters. The guys in my party and the assholes."
    Rinella is quoting the author John Gierach when he says that. Just cuz, credit where credit’s due...

  13. #63

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    I wont lecture others on ethics and ask that they offer me the same respect. I believe that it is in poor taste to crowd someone who is there before you. I also think it is in poor taste to demand that someone else follow "your" ethical guidelines.

    I will point out the similarities between Buzz's expectations and the outfitter's expectations of the hunting public. The outfitter also tends to have been there longer, tends to be there first, and tends to have spent time clearing trails. This leads them to feel that they have some "ownership" of the area having earned it.

    There was a time when this was common with hunting camps on public lands. It was also very common for people to be fiercely defensive of trap lines on public lands. I believe the commercial aspect of trapping breeds this defensiveness. This may also be the driving factor for outfitters, because their success depends on limited use by others. It is flat out bullying.

    I believe that outfitters, and hunting camps, should have to work around the public just as the public works around them. I have had hunters walk through my camp in the wee hours, and I have walked through other camps in the wee hours. I have cleared trails and I have used trails cleared by others. I will never chew someone's ass for using their public lands legally.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTTW View Post
    I wont lecture others on ethics and ask that they offer me the same respect. I believe that it is in poor taste to crowd someone who is there before you. I also think it is in poor taste to demand that someone else follow "your" ethical guidelines.

    I will point out the similarities between Buzz's expectations and the outfitter's expectations of the hunting public. The outfitter also tends to have been there longer, tends to be there first, and tends to have spent time clearing trails. This leads them to feel that they have some "ownership" of the area having earned it.

    There was a time when this was common with hunting camps on public lands. It was also very common for people to be fiercely defensive of trap lines on public lands. I believe the commercial aspect of trapping breeds this defensiveness. This may also be the driving factor for outfitters, because their success depends on limited use by others. It is flat out bullying.

    I believe that outfitters, and hunting camps, should have to work around the public just as the public works around them. I have had hunters walk through my camp in the wee hours, and I have walked through other camps in the wee hours. I have cleared trails and I have used trails cleared by others. I will never chew someone's ass for using their public lands legally.
    I suppose it depends on how your ethics were taught to you as well. I don't share information with other people about public land areas that were shown to me by friends. I don't go back and hunt those areas either, unless invited back by the person that showed them to me, or at the very least, calling first. Matter of fact, I just made a phone call Tuesday, to a friend that showed me some really great spots in the Coues deer area I drew in Arizona. I called to make sure that him and his buddies didn't have tags as I have no intention of looking like an asshole showing up to a glassing spot and bumping into him or one of his buddies. Further, its just the right and ethical thing to do. Its about being a sportsman.

    It was also never been a common practice, anywhere I hunt, to park your vehicle 20 feet from someone else's camp, use the trail those same guys cut in, etc. without even bothering to talk to the camp first.

    That's a total and complete lack of ethics, concern for others, and clearly not trying to "work around other hunters". That's hunting right on top of others and just not giving a chit about anything or anyone else. And yes, I'll chew their ass every single time if they don't have an IQ larger than their shoe size...public land or not.

    This stuff isn't rocket science...its pretty common sense.
    Last edited by BuzzH; 12-06-2018 at 09:55 AM.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by COEngineer View Post
    This thread can be summed up with one of Rinella's favorite quotes, paraphrased here, "There are two types of hunters. The guys in my party and the assholes."

    The further I hike in, the fewer of both types I have to deal with.
    That's also an old fisherman's saying.

    I only went off on someone once, and that person jumped into the hole in front of my wife and I while we were starting to fish upstream on an otherwise vacant river. You could tell by his body language he knew he was executing a dick move by jumping in front of me instead of going elsewhere so I walked up there and reaffirmed it. He agreed and apologized, which made me feel bad. I was going to offer to leap frog with him but he said he would go downstream.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtraverdavis View Post
    Rinella is quoting the author John Gierach when he says that. Just cuz, credit where credit’s due...
    Yes, founder of the National Riffle Association

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtraverdavis View Post
    Rinella is quoting the author John Gierach when he says that. Just cuz, credit where credit’s due...
    Yep, Gierach is a classic...

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobG View Post
    Yes, founder of the National Riffle Association
    Riffles, pools, and runs need all the help they can get.
    Can you direct me to the NRA's website?

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    use the trail those same guys cut in, etc.
    I know I'm going to look like an idiot here but what does this mean? I feel like if you are camped next to a trail head and try to claim it that's one thing but if you pull out on some FS road and bust trail up a ridge to glass elk that's another. Is the later what you are referring to or something else?

  20. #70
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    PrairieHunter is on it.

    Lots of rude behavior being discussed here. Some annoying behavior. But un-ethical behavior?....some, but not as much as people are claiming. Like unethical is a buzzword for something I don't like and find annoying. But is it really unethical? Just an example so lets not debate kneeling for the flag, but unethical, illegal, annoying, or irritant to you? If you aren't okay with it.

    Parking next to your wall tent? Dick move, not doubt about it. I don't blame you for telling what for. I wouldn't call it unethical. Shooting at a target on the horizon? Unethical. Not picking on you Buzz, just the first example I could think of.

    For some of the examples of people, some people may be pretty new to hunting. I say cut people some slack in some cases. I mean some of you are almost claiming to be body language experts from how many hundred yards away? "You could tell they knew..." Maybe you could in your case. I wasn't there so I don't know. Just asking that you get a little introspective too.

  21. #71
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    Not to pick on Buzz, but I have seen people parking in trail head parking areas that didn't leave 20 ft for another person to park. They took the trail head as their personal campsite and used it all.

    Seems like common, old-fashioned courtesy is in short supply these days, and not just on the hunting trails and trail heads.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by wllm1313 View Post
    I know I'm going to look like an idiot here but what does this mean? I feel like if you are camped next to a trail head and try to claim it that's one thing but if you pull out on some FS road and bust trail up a ridge to glass elk that's another. Is the later what you are referring to or something else?
    Later...the blowdown from MPB infestation is very bad and my buddy George and I cut a trail through it. Not camped anywhere near a designated trailhead, or official trail. Where I camp is at the end of a small 2-track spur about 150 feet from a FS road. There is no reason for anyone to park that close.

    I would agree 100% that if a person is going to camp at a designated trailhead, having someone park 20 feet from your tent is to be expected and nothing I would complain about. If you're dumb enough to make the choice to camp at trailhead, expect plenty of company. Similar to camping in an established campground, expect company.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  23. #73
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    In a different thread I attached pics of guys doing exactly what Buzz spoke of - camping, dogs and all, a few yards from my wall tent.
    They were indeed dumb asses. Rude, inconsiderate, clueless, as greenhorn likes - douches. I would have loved to puff out my 6'3" 230 lb chest and chew' em a new butthole.
    I was there to hunt with my dog, smell the smells, see the sights, and do what I enjoy more than anything in the world. Say I kick some verbal ass, they tell me to pound sand, I get even more pissed and it escalates. Hell, I might be the one gets thumped - there's always a tougher dog in a different pack........
    Rather have the memories of my girl on rock solid point, coming back to me with a rooster in her lips, and seeing the sunset over the central Montana prairie, than the bitter taste of a pissing match or worse - as I too grew up when men were men, and had my share of tough guy moments. I guess I grew up and would rather enjoy life.
    Ethics or whatever - some other dumb ass isn't worth tainting memories afield.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    It was also never been a common practice, anywhere I hunt, to park your vehicle 20 feet from someone else's camp, use the trail those same guys cut in, etc. without even bothering to talk to the camp first.
    Not trying to argue, but to me it entirely depends on where your camp is. I'm sure your situation is different than this:

    As I wrote in an earlier post, I've run into guys who camp at the mouth of a gulch up the road from my house who seem to think that as long as they are camped there it is their gulch. And yes, for me to hunt it requires me parking right next to their camp. I could give a chit less if they spend days cutting trail into that area. I'm not going to not hunt that gulch for a week or longer, and I'm not going to go wake em up when I pull in before they've even got their boots on from bed to talk to them.

    I'll fully admit I have far less sympathy for camps than I do for guys who got there that morning. I feel like I am very cognizant of other hunters when hunting, and almost always defer to the other guy, but there is no "holding your spot" in the mountains. I wouldn't doubt if I saw the situation you are referencing personally I may feel different.
    “It is well to go all out sometimes.” - Elers Koch

  25. #75
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    Just read your recent post. Makes sense.
    “It is well to go all out sometimes.” - Elers Koch

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