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creedmore vs 308 article and cyber monday deal on creedmore

riley said:
i make fun of the 6.5 creed, but lets face it I'm going to end up with one ... ImBillT i think your on the right path admitting you need a rangefinder
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Of course I do! I’ve never been elk hunting before, and never taken a shot at animal that far.(I’ve shot plenty of paper that far)The terrain and circumstances were such that I could take the shot or go home with a tag. As soon as it was over I told my dad “I’m buying a range finder”. Preferably I’ll have better circumstances in the future and it won’t matter. I built the gun I was using with the intent that I could hold on hair on a mule deer to 400yds and still have a solid hit. I’m 5” low at 300yds and 15” low at 400yds. The idea is if he’s “close” you aim where you wanna hit, and if he’s “far” you aim at the top of the back. With 6.5” of drift in a 10mph wind you just hold a little on the windy side unless it’s a pretty crazy blow. Nonetheless a rangefinder would have improved the situation dramatically, and I intend to have one next year.
 
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riley said:
i make fun of the 6.5 creed, but lets face it I'm going to end up with one ... ImBillT i think your on the right path admitting you need a rangefinder
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I don't have one, but no doubt the Creedmoor is here to stay. Just about every manufacturer is churning them out like hot cakes, our grandkids will probably all inherit gun safes full of vintage plastic 6.5 rifles.

I may get a couple for my kids in a few years.
 
So going by the chart on chuck hawks, a 6.5 creedmore and a .308 compare similarly to the difference between a .270 and a 30-06. Thats substituting the data of a .260 rem for the credmore and adding a little knockdown to the .308 to allow for a 165 grain bullet.

I'm sure thats a shock to people not humping a 6.5 credemore.
 
ImBillT said:
. . .
I’m not perfect, and neither is anyone else. Thus far I haven’t lost a game animal yet. If you want to limit yourself to 250yds, that’s great, but it hasn’t resulted in a perfect track record for you. I have a problem with shooting at an animal without a safe backstop behind it, or without knowing what is behind it. I have a problem with shooting where you think vitals should be because you see a small part of an animal. I have a problem with shooting at animal if you don’t know for sure what it is. I have a problem with wounding an animal and not making your very very best effort to recover it...especially if you then choose to just shoot another one. We're in agreement on all of these things. I'm not sure it's relevant. No one here is claiming to be perfect, but as you stated in your response after this one this was certainly not an ideal situation.

. . . I don’t have any definite numbers and may be off base, but I would guess that the average bow hunter has a worse track record than I do so far. You mention not having an appropriate pin for a certain range. What about traditional archers without pins? What about instinctive shooters who don’t even have sights? If you don't have definite, or really any, numbers then don't both spewing this stuff. All this about archers, especially traditional, instinctive guys, is just distracting from the original point of this discussion. I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to say/admit? I will say that, of the traditional, instinctive bow hunters that I know, they are usually very particular about only taking short (<25 yards) shots that are nearly perfect opportunities. Those guys are the least likely to take risky shots, from my personal experience

. . . What about drowning in their own blood with an arrow through the lungs, or walking around for days with an arrow in the guts untilnthey die of septicemia? I don’t believe to be unethical to try something a little less than ideal if it’s safe, and you’re going to make your best effort both to make it work, and to recover it after the fact. An arrow through the lungs is going to kill an animal pretty fast. Is an arrow through the guts any worse than a bullet through the guts? I don't know the answer to that but I would be equally sick about both.
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Although some people worded it a little stronger than others, I think the point is that your situation was far from ideal and it might have been better to not take the shot. Moreover, my main thing was that I hope your story doesn't convince other people to think that a scenario like yours is perfectly reasonable and encourage them to take similar shots in the future. There are too many variables and some animal is going to suffer unnecessarily.

Like I said I've never killed an elk like many of the guys on this forum. I've gone home with unfilled tags in my pocket, from deer, elk, bear, etc, plenty of times. Unfortunately that's how it goes sometimes.
 
LCH said:
I don't have one, but no doubt the Creedmoor is here to stay. Just about every manufacturer is churning them out like hot cakes, our grandkids will probably all inherit gun safes full of vintage plastic 6.5 rifles.

I may get a couple for my kids in a few years.
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I'm picturing a bunch of children with manbuns and ar-15s chambered in 6.5 creedmore with rangefinders on their belts. The caption says 'Future'.
 
ajricketts said:
Although some people worded it a little stronger than others, I think the point is that your situation was far from ideal and it might have been better to not take the shot. Moreover, my main thing was that I hope your story doesn't convince other people to think that a scenario like yours is perfectly reasonable and encourage them to take similar shots in the future. There are too many variables and some animal is going to suffer unnecessarily.

Like I said I've never killed an elk like many of the guys on this forum. I've gone home with unfilled tags in my pocket, from deer, elk, bear, etc, plenty of times. Unfortunately that's how it goes sometimes.
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I do not believe it to be unethical to take a shot that is less than ideal, if that shot does not endanger others and you’re willing and prepared to do everything that may be required after the shot. Of course there are shots that are too far from ideal. I’ll draw that line for me. You draw that line for you.

My point about archery is that the very weapon choice is less than ideal and even under “ideal” circumstances. If the AVERAGE archer with 16 heads of big game under his belt has lost one or more wounded animals, then the average archery track record is worse than mine and you need to have the same problem with archery hunting that you do with me. If you don’t, then that’s a double standard.

My point about the many painful ways an animal can die is this. Nature itself does not offer many painless deaths to animal, and neither does hunting. It’s easy for human beings in brick homes with climate control who get their meat in a package at the store to imagine a nature without pain or death. The fact is that that while it is not my intent to cause a death that takes more than a few seconds, nature offers no promise that an animal would be given a more preferable option if I hadn’t taken the shot, even in the worst hunting scenarios. We should all strive to offer an animal a quick clean kill, but none of us can guarantee it. Intentionally shooting an animal poorly would be something else completely.
 
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shaffe48 said:
I'm picturing a bunch of children with manbuns and ar-15s chambered in 6.5 creedmore with rangefinders on their belts. The caption says 'Future'.
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Hahah nice ! Us youngsters wouldn’t even need it in 6.5 . We would all have .223 cuz even at that caliber anything will die with a couple 5 round bursts
 
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ImBillT said:
I agree that people spend too much time dissecting ballistics calculations, but for unknown range shooting a flat shooting cartridge really is more forgiving. Maybe I shouldn’t have taken the shots, but my first elk was killed at an estimated 670 yards. I don’t own a range finder, and will be getting one after that experience. I thought it was somewhere around 500yds, but elk are big and I don’t have much experience ranging them. I knew I was 30” low at 500yds running 140 Elite Hunters at 3175fps. I aimed 8” over th back and fired. No reaction. Top of the antlers. Disturbed, and trying to decide which way to run. 2’ over the antlers. Hit. After the shot ranging with OnX maps it showed 671yds. At 670yds I’m 66” low. With the other gun I took on the hunt, a 30-06 running 180 Elite Hunters at 2750, I would have been about 96” low. I think that was the difference between tag soup and my first elk. Would recommend doing it that way? Definitely not. It was now or never situation and haven’t prolonged rains in the forecast that would have limited me to places accessible by pavement for the last two days of my tag. It’s the decision I made, and this time it worked out. Next time I plan to have range finder.

How flat a cartridge shoots is much more a function of muzzle velocity than BC until you get to very extreme ranges, but it’s certainly a complimentary aspect. Also, long bullets do tend to penetrate well. A 30-06 could be loaded with a light bullet to beat 3175fps, but it would be a short bullet that might not perform as well on large game and would definitely drift a lot more in the wind. At more reasonable range it wouldn’t matter too much, but I do believe that I benefited from my cartridge choice.
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Wow
 
Idk MTTW. But I know what we can all agree on... that a .308 is just WAY better then a 6.5.;)
 
MTTW said:
The mistake that Bill really made after doing what 100 million hunters did before the laser rangefinder, was to admit it on the internet.
That being said, the practice is outdated, which he realizes.
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Exactly. And my money says it still happens every year. Wrong? Yeah. The guy admitted as much. Move on. mtmuley
 
mtmuley, might you prefer the uphill scope kisses of a 6.5?

....asking for a friend.
 
FWIW, knowing whether something is 500 or 670 yds...and having a reliable rangefinder at all, is a single piece of the long-ish range puzzle. Anybody can read a number and turn a dial.
Wind and steady field shooting is the crux; as stick would say, "hint". ;)
 
Not that I am perfect at doping wind by any means, but to pretend knowing the distance solves all the problems is silly.
 
shaffe48 said:
I'm picturing a bunch of children with manbuns and ar-15s chambered in 6.5 creedmore with rangefinders on their belts. The caption says 'Future'.
Click to expand...

I forgot wind meters. 600 yard shots ain't easy... even for these kids. But the 6.5 sure will make the task easier.
 
SnowyMountaineer said:
Not that I am perfect at doping wind by any means, but to pretend knowing the distance solves all the problems is silly.
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By no means does knowing the exact range solve all the problems but it’s a big help, both for drop AND drift. How do you hold for wind if you don’t know the range? A range finder would have been a big help. Heck I might have also decided that 670yds was a little outside my comfort zone and made a last minute effort to get closer.(although I didn’t see getting any closer as a viable option or Inwould have done that anyway) Also, just as a flat shooting load is more forgiving of range error, a high BC bullet at high velocity is more forgiving of wind error. The big advantage of the 6.5mm over the .30 cal is that in the bullet weights that most people prefer to shoot at game, the 6.5mm offers much higher BCs. At most hunting ranges it doesn’t matter, but at 500yds and beyond it does amount to a significant advantage. The 308 Win, 30-06, 300 Win Mag can all be loaded with higher BC bullets than a 6.5 and thus beat the wind, but A) those bullets are heavier than the majority or hunters like to shoot, especially from light weight guns, B) in the 308 and 30-06 they don’t beat the 6.5s in wind drift until well beyond 500yds, and C)those bullets are heavy enough that until you step up to even larger cartridges, their trajectory is not as flat as a 6.5 Creed, 6.5-284, 6.5-06 using competitive BC bullets.

My load is yielding about 12” of drift at 500yds in a 10mph wind, while a common 308 load will give about 18”, and with 16” MORE drop.
 
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